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Back to jerry33's bogus assertions re: "many Leaf drivers apparently can't get over 50 miles if conditions aren't perfect", please see My Nissan Leaf Forum NEW 300 km Club !!!!. Those values (100 miles and up) are possible but only while going quite slow and/or w/hypermiling. Driving It To The Bitter End - 2011 Nissan Leaf Long-Term Road Test achieved 132.0 miles at 35 mph.

Tony Williams also has run 62 mph range tests at My Nissan Leaf Forum 81 miles and My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - 2012 / 2013 LEAF Range Test San Diego Mar 8, 2013.
None of those examples of significantly more than 50 mi range are real world conditions.

1. You can not expect the general public to hyper mile. As I stated earlier, you can hardly expect the general public to even drive the speed limit instead of 5+ mph over.
2. Driving a constant 35 mph does not represent real-world driving at all.
3. One wants to leave a reasonable buffer. The first low battery warning is a reasonable buffer for most, but many people would prefer even 20 miles buffer. Heck, if you look at when Tesla owners start getting range anxiety, it seems to happen when people get down to under 50 miles range. That's less range that what I start out with every day (80% charge)!

In my first year of LEAF ownership, I was able to drive 65-70 miles of mostly freeway at an indicated 65 mph with a small portion of city driving before LBW in near perfect weather (I live in San Diego!).

After 2 years, I have lost about 10-12 miles off that, which is expected given that I've lost the 12th capacity bar and thus about 15% capacity, which means about 55 miles before LBW. I did that both days this weekend.

If I drove "normally", IE an indicated 72 mph instead of 65 mph (note that the speedo on the LEAF reads ~3 mph high at freeway speeds), that would easily knock range down about 10% to 50 miles before LBW on a 100% charge in perfect weather.

Now throw in rain, cold and/or windy conditions and you can easily lose another 10% in range if not more - now you have a less than 3 year old car with less than 50 mile range despite Nissan's claim that it is a "100 mile" car. Perhaps you will feel differently near the end of your lease when you've lost a significant amount of capacity.

It's really too bad the battery loses capacity so quickly - it's my primary gripe with the vehicle. I really expected it to hold up as well as the Roadster batteries which appear to hold up much better than the LEAF batteries, despite being only "laptop grade" compared to Nissan's "automotive grade" batteries - especially considering that I live in an area with a relatively mild climate. It seems that I will easily exceed Nissan's suggested 20% capacity loss after 5 years - I'll probably get there after 3-4 years.

I really hope Nissan steps up and makes improvements to the batteries and makes them available at a very reasonable price to early adopters. Otherwise a lot of early adopters are really going to be left with a distaste towards EVs and Nissan especially. It will be very interesting to see how Model S batteries hold up after a year, since they say to expect similar amounts of capacity loss (20% after 5 years, 30% after 8 years) as Nissan.
 
... It will be very interesting to see how Model S batteries hold up after a year, since they say to expect similar amounts of capacity loss (20% after 5 years, 30% after 8 years) as Nissan.

I'm at about 6.5% loss in the Rav4 EV at 24,000 miles and one year.

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Now, it's based on an outdated generation of RAV 4, but it wasn't selling before it became outdated.

Not everyone wants a small SUV/RAV 4 when they want an EV.

Plenty of people will buy a Rav4.. "RAV4, bolstered by sales of the all-new 2014 model, recorded its best-ever February with sales of 13,329 units (IN ONE MONTH), up 5.1 percent... Toyota Division posted February 2013 total sales of 149,038 units"

Toyota has contracted with Tesla for exactly 2600 cars over model years 2012-2014. That's total production is based on how many credits they estimate for each car. Currently, that should be 3 credits for each "Type II - 100+ miles range" car sold in California. But, if the car is sold and REGISTERED out of state, they likely only get half or less credits for CARB states (the "traveling" provision") and perhaps ZERO for a non-CARB state. So, the incentive is for them to make every attempt to keep the cars in state is HUGE.

So, if they can't get 2600 * 3 = 7800 credits for the three model years as planned, they can't easily make any more 2012 body style Rav4 EVs to compensate for the lost credits... which means that they will have to pay a $5000 per credit penalty per car not produced, plus buy credits on the open market to make up for the cars that didn't get 3 credits each.

Clearly, Toyota is becoming increasingly agitated with out of state sales. They built the car for one reason, and that singular reason is costing them TENS of millions of dollars to sell them to you (so they can sell oil burner cars in California and other CARB states). They can't prevent a dealer (all of which are privately owned in the USA) from doing "interstate commerce", but they can make it difficult for you to own and purchase the car out of state.

Here's the tricks they employ to make sure it's neither too popular, nor sold out of state:


1. Intentionally limiting sales to California only with almost no advertising
2. Not providing CHAdeMO, even though Toyota is a founding CHAdeMO member
3. No unlimited mileage leases allowed out-of-state
4. Harassing out-of-state dealers who want to service / warranty repair the car by not paying them!
5. Limiting the listing of charging stations in the Navigation unit to California only


In the future, I predict different incentives for out of state, to wit:

6. Limiting the discounts on the car to only California sales and registration
7. Offering only higher interest rate / lease money factors on sales out-of-state
8. Limiting the car in some obtuse way (making Entunes not work, or some other petty method to make the car less attractive out of state)
9. Limited parts availability to non-California states (i.e., you can't even pay cash for the parts, let alone get warranty repairs)
10. Any other way that the lawyers will sign off on to make sure that the car is likely to be sold and registered only in California through 2014 model year

So, for out-of-state buyers, things will get worse, I ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE IT.

For instate, the discounts will likely go down until they feel the pressure to sell model year 2014 cars. The CARB-ZEV credits are attached to the model year.
 
Ummm... they were offering $9300 incentives for purchasing in Nor Cal and $10K for So Cal earlier coupled WITH 0% APR financing. Off the top of my head, I don't know of any (still in business) EV makers offering anything that strong. At least that coupled w/the $7500 Federal tax credit and $2500 CVRP got them finally moving.
Well, the $200/month lease deals for a couple of recent EVs seems to be much stronger than even that MSRP cut (with the factory $10k cut it's still equivalent to a $500/month lease, although in late august they did release a $300/month deal).

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Plenty of people will buy a Rav4.. "RAV4, bolstered by sales of the all-new 2014 model, recorded its best-ever February with sales of 13,329 units (IN ONE MONTH), up 5.1 percent... Toyota Division posted February 2013 total sales of 149,038 units"
I think he's referring to pre-2014 model year sales. Sales in 2013 were better than previous years because of the new model.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01/toyota-rav4-sales-figures.html
 
Switching gears slightly; the Tesla powered, Rav4EV is a perfect case for the true 100 mi EV; in a popular form factor (CUV); but it sells poorly. What is it doing wrong? Is it the exception to the rule that we just need a bit more range to reach the tipping point?

I looked seriously at the Rav4EV, due to the Tesla drive train and the 100 miles range. In the end I just could not pull the trigger, even with all the incentives they were throwing at.

It was so obviously a CA compliance car it was almost embarrassing. It looks, feels and drives like the old style $24k Rav4V SUV with Tesla batteries and model bolted on that it is.

Also, there are several issues which it looks like Toyota has no intention of fixing them as it's a dead end product.
 
None of those examples of significantly more than 50 mi range are real world conditions.

1. You can not expect the general public to hyper mile. As I stated earlier, you can hardly expect the general public to even drive the speed limit instead of 5+ mph over.
2. Driving a constant 35 mph does not represent real-world driving at all.
3. One wants to leave a reasonable buffer. The first low battery warning is a reasonable buffer for most, but many people would prefer even 20 miles buffer. Heck, if you look at when Tesla owners start getting range anxiety, it seems to happen when people get down to under 50 miles range. That's less range that what I start out with every day (80% charge)!

In my first year of LEAF ownership, I was able to drive 65-70 miles of mostly freeway at an indicated 65 mph with a small portion of city driving before LBW in near perfect weather (I live in San Diego!).

After 2 years, I have lost about 10-12 miles off that, which is expected given that I've lost the 12th capacity bar and thus about 15% capacity, which means about 55 miles before LBW. I did that both days this weekend.

If I drove "normally", IE an indicated 72 mph instead of 65 mph (note that the speedo on the LEAF reads ~3 mph high at freeway speeds), that would easily knock range down about 10% to 50 miles before LBW on a 100% charge in perfect weather.

Now throw in rain, cold and/or windy conditions and you can easily lose another 10% in range if not more - now you have a less than 3 year old car with less than 50 mile range despite Nissan's claim that it is a "100 mile" car. Perhaps you will feel differently near the end of your lease when you've lost a significant amount of capacity.
1) I agree completely about not expecting the public to hypermile. As for #2, it depends on where. If you live in places where they drive slow (e.g. Seattle area), some people won't even do the speed limit in the fast lane and won't yield to faster folks. :rolleyes:

Some folks have strictly city driving. My mother basically almost completely REFUSES to drive on the highway. On the rare times when she needs to go somewhere "far" in the Bay Area, she'll take local roads and expressways instead of the highway. :rolleyes: She says highway driving is "too fast" and "makes her dizzy". She'd say these things even when she was in her 40s... When she drove my Prius back from the dealer I leased my Leaf from (Boardwalk in Redwood City), she took El Camino and other local roads! It was ~38 miles, one way when doing the almost all highway route and ~39 miles via a way slower avoid highways route.

Another friend sounds like she has a commute (in her '11 Prius) that's strictly city/local roads. From looking at Google maps, taking a highway would make an 8.4 mile trip 11.8 miles and not save any time. And, I think she commutes during rush hour, so she must spend lots of time in stop and go.

2) Agree. However, the average speed of my commute is very low. I should reset reset the average mph reading each time and take notes as to the values. On some days, where I hit traffic (and the fact that only ~2.5 to ~4.5 or 5 miles is highway, depending on the route), I recall seeing average speeds of <30 mph for my commute.

EPA combined numbers assume 45% highway and 55% city...

3) Agree about the buffer. But, with % SoC meter or a gid meter and learning the car, and certain circumstances, you don't need that much. Heck, I left for work this morning with 27% indicated SoC (dash display). That's more than 2x what I need to arrive at work (<12 miles, not much highway). I arrived w/17% SoC and LBW didn't sound yet. No point in me charging up to more at home and possibly pushing me into higher PG&E tiers when juice @ work is free.

Yep. I'm sure rain, heater use and wind will cut down on range. I too dislike the "100 mile" range BS. That's definitely the # to be telling potential buyers/lessees. My lease is only 2 years...
 
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My wife has a 2013 Leaf and on the weekends I sometimes drive it if all of us are going somewhere. On average, I get about 90 miles @ 55MPH with the AC and radio turned on~


LEAFrangeChartVersion7F.jpg
 
A 48 kWh leaf would be a VERY strong competitor for gen III.
Agreed (depending on price and time frame). I might even no longer be a "gen III waiter" if they release this car at a reasonable price before the gen III.

I'm betting they just stuck another LEAF pack into the back seat and trunk area, since it's exactly double a standard LEAF pack. It's no secret that a larger pack will provide more range so I wouldn't read too much into this.
I suspect that too, esp. given Nissan have been taking a "we only have one drivetrain" strategy with their EVs (all their EVs use the same 24kWh pack and drivetrain, including the Leaf RC).
 
looks like they might be considering increasing the battery's capacity to 48 kWh ...
http://insideevs.com/nissan-tests-48-kwh-leaf-at-ecoseries/
A quote from Nissan in the article talking about one of three cars entered in the event:
...was introduced as a mobile test lab, running in the series’ EV prototype category. For the final race, its battery pack was doubled in size to take battery performance to 48kWh
"EV prototype category" most likely means extra battery cells rigged into an existing LEAF chassis, taking up passenger/trunk space, etc.

Glad to see them testing higher-capacity prototypes, but I doubt that this 48kWh battery would make it into production LEAFs any time soon...

(edit: what JRP3 and stopcrazypp said, heh)
 
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I'm betting they just stuck another LEAF pack into the back seat and trunk area, since it's exactly double a standard LEAF pack. It's no secret that a larger pack will provide more range so I wouldn't read too much into this.
Yep. I believe that they have taken a similar strategy with a truck or something, haven't they?

Yep, here's the e-NT400 Cabstar Concept - uses 3 LEAF packs in parallel for 72 kWh.

Nissan Leaf Technology Goes to Work in Electric Truck Concepts - Automotive News

The current pack format doesn't lend itself all that well to small increases in pack size.

Each module uses a 2S-2P (2 cells in series, 2 in parallel), so to nominally increase capacity you'd have to increase pack voltage and you can imagine that the car is designed around the ~395V limit it's currently using (96 modules in series charged to ~4.1V each - each module is good for 0.25 kWh).

So let's say you want a 32 kWh LEAF, you'd have to add 32 more modules which would bump up voltage to 524V. So some tweaking of cell/module size would have to be done to make this work.

Tesla has a bit of an advantage here since they use so many small cells, it's easy to split packs up into smaller capacities while keeping voltage the same. I'm actually surprised to see that Tesla opted to drop pack voltage on the 60 kWh Model S rather than build smaller modules - but perhaps with the volume of 60 kWh cars they sell it makes more sense to simply use fewer modules. There could be other reasons, too.

Still - I bet you that if Nissan sold a 48 kWh LEAF even if it only had 2 seats, you'd see some takers...
 
even with less cargo space I will take 48kwh anytime i.e. 150 miles or around that for same price or 2k more will do anytime... kill the competition.. oh wait there won't be any with more charger and few FREE ones..

I agree. My wife bought a 2013 Leaf earlier this year and uses it mainly for her daily commute to work (approximately 50 miles round trip). On days where she wants to make a side trip elsewhere, there definitely is range anxiety. I guess for those who wouldn't mind a little less cargo space, the sacrifice is well worth it.
 
I might even no longer be a "gen III waiter" if they release this car at a reasonable price before the gen III.

You will not be alone. I consider myself a Gen III waiter, as I decided I simply cannot afford the Model S, but in September 2015 my Volt lease is up, and I am going to have to find something to drive. I desperately want to drive a Tesla, but if there is an EV option that has enough range to meet my needs that I can actually afford when my lease is up, I will have to give it serious though.