Nissan Leaf

[TEG]

...I don't understand thinking of the Prius as a PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle). Even though it has an EV mode you cannot plug it in.

I was speaking only of the upcoming plug-in-Prius.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Nissan Leaf News: Electric-Car Updates Coming For 2012, 2013

"Then, for 2013, the Leaf's onboard 240-Volt Level 2 charger will be upgraded to 6.6 kilowatts (from today's 3.3 kW), considerably reducing the time needed to recharge the lithium-ion battery."

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1063015_nissan-leaf-news-electric-car-updates-coming-for-2012-2013

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

A NEW, GREEN, LEAF OF LIFE FOR NISSAN EV BATTERIES

http://www.newsroom.nissan-europe.com/uk/en-gb/Media/Media.aspx?mediaid=82212

 

[vfx]

This report is fascinating. Some Huh!, some really? and some duh! obvious findings on the first 4,000 Leaf owners.

So much good stuff in here to go into other threads. I apologize in advance for cross posting it.

10 Surprising Things About the Nissan Leaf | BNET

 

[JRP3]

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2011/07/nissan4r-20110711.html

4R Energy Corporation has already started tests on a compact electricity storage system installed with second-life lithium ion batteries previously used in Nissan LEAFs.

I'd like to know where they got the used LEAF packs from, test vehicles? How old, how many miles, how much capacity remained?

 

[ESdude]

I don't know what to make out of that "second-life" talk from Nissan and others.
Are they serious or just trying to alleviate fears of hugely expensive battery replacement down the road?
My confusion comes from the fact pointed by that "week in batteries" guy: basically that 80% capacity threshold does not mean that battery is still 80% good. The curve of degradation is such, that it will be only a few weeks till battery will get to 70% and days to 60% after that...

 

[EVNow]

I don't know what to make out of that "second-life" talk from Nissan and others.
Are they serious or just trying to alleviate fears of hugely expensive battery replacement down the road?
My confusion comes from the fact pointed by that "week in batteries" guy: basically that 80% capacity threshold does not mean that battery is still 80% good. The curve of degradation is such, that it will be only a few weeks till battery will get to 70% and days to 60% after that...

Hmm ... I thought the capacity reduction is linear with age & use, if not asymptotic ... any links ?

 

[JRP3]

Yeah, I've seen no such information.

 

[stopcrazypp]

My confusion comes from the fact pointed by that "week in batteries" guy: basically that 80% capacity threshold does not mean that battery is still 80% good. The curve of degradation is such, that it will be only a few weeks till battery will get to 70% and days to 60% after that...

Most cycle life graphs I have seen show a similar rate of degradation even at the end of the rated life.

Here's some graphs from this thread:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...formance-Shootout-5-10-15-Amps-AW-Added/page2

Seems to show some acceleration after 600 cycles, but then the drop is still linear, not as extreme as that batteries guy says. (Also shows life is significantly better if you limit the max capacity). Does he reference some graphs that perhaps shows what happens after it reaches below 70-60% capacity (perhaps it accelerates then)? But regardless, it seems from the graphs there's at least 20-25% of the original utility of the battery left after "end of life" (80%), even without seeing what happens below 70-60% capacity.

 

[ESdude]

I assumed that mentioning "week in batteries" was a good enough link.

here it is: This week in batteries (TWiB): If your cat has nine lives, shouldn't your battery have at least two?

 

[JRP3]

I'd say this part is rather important:

If you plot the capacity of a battery versus cycle number you will see that different batteries fade differently. Some batteries fade rapidly in the 1st few cycles and then the capacity stabilizes. Others increase in capacity in the 1st few cycles then level off and then starts a linear fade.

That certainly describes what we see with LiFePO4 cells, with capacity increasing the first 50 or so cycles then a slow linear fade. It's also highly dependent on how deeply the cells are cycled, shallow cycling in the middle of the SOC range drastically increases cycle life.

 

[EVNow]

My confusion comes from the fact pointed by that "week in batteries" guy: basically that 80% capacity threshold does not mean that battery is still 80% good. The curve of degradation is such, that it will be only a few weeks till battery will get to 70% and days to 60% after that...

It is not clear what he is saying - in terms of years of life or % of capacity. He just says there is a point after which the battery fade accelerates. Is he talking only about NMC or other chemistries ?

Some of the old Rav4-EVs have perhaps the longest serving batteries - but they are NiMH. I haven't heard of anyone who said their battery suddenly died after fading to 70 %.

 

[Norbert]

This report is fascinating. Some Huh!, some really? and some duh! obvious findings on the first 4,000 Leaf owners.

So much good stuff in here to go into other threads. I apologize in advance for cross posting it.

10 Surprising Things About the Nissan Leaf | BNET

I found these two bits very interesting:

There are two Leaf models, the SV and the upscale SL, and 95 percent of buyers are going for the upmarket SL.

An amazing 89 percent of SL buyers are going for the fast-charging port, which uses the Japanese CHAdeMO standard.

Together this means that 85% of all Leaf customers (sold in the US, I guess), 3495 as of early July, bought a fast charging port. Even more than I expected.

 

[EVNow]

I found these two bits very interesting:

Together this means that 85% of all Leaf customers (sold in the US, I guess), 3495 as of early July, bought a fast charging port. Even more than I expected.

Remember - 50% of the people are in EV Project - who got the QC free.

 

[Norbert]

Remember - 50% of the people are in EV Project - who got the QC free.

I'm not familiar with the reasons to join EV Project... perhaps most those who are interested in QC have joined EV Project... perhaps even, in part, also in order to get QC for free? In any case, it is still 70% of the remaining 50%, which I think is, considering that a fast charging network doesn't exist yet, still a lot.

 

[Dave EV]

To be part of the EV project you have to live in a particular area where quick chargers are planned to be deployed. Utility cooperation is also a requirement, I believe. Being part of the EV project also covers the cost of your L2 EVSE and $1200 towards the installation cost - which for most people covers the entire installation cost.

All in exchange for your driving and charging habits for a few years. Not a bad deal.

 

[Mycroft]

WSJ article July 24, 2011: Nissan Leaf: Can You Live With an Electric Car?

I’m almost certain my next car will run on batteries instead of gasoline — as long as I can choose something other than a Leaf. ... But I want a good-looking car, and I think Nissan could have made the Leaf sexier instead of trying to out-weird the Toyota Prius hybrid’s styling.

Electric cars are in the early days of their latest incarnation, and they have their best shot yet at mass-market appeal. Increasing their range to, say, 200 to 250 per charge would do the trick for many consumers who have longer commutes or want a bigger margin of safety in winter driving, when extreme cold can roughly half the batteries’ range.

Reading through the comments, other than the typical anti-EV whiners, there are a LOT of folks who just can't get over the looks of the Leaf. Hopefully the Ford Focus EV will be a better fit for them.

 

[Doug_G]

Increasing their range to, say, 200 to 250 per charge would do the trick for many consumers who have longer commutes or want a bigger margin of safety in winter driving, when extreme cold can roughly half the batteries’ range.

In other words he wants a Roadster - 240 mile range. To be honest, that's exactly the number that first really piqued my interest, and why I have one today.

Also I've driven my Roadster in extreme cold, and there's no way the range is 1/2. If the car is totally cold-soaked it's that bad for maybe 10 minutes. Once the battery warms up it behaves quite normally. I should say it handles the cold better than my ICE car.

 

[EVNow]

I’m almost certain my next car will run on batteries instead of gasoline — as long as I can choose something other than a Leaf. ... But I want a good-looking car, and I think Nissan could have made the Leaf sexier instead of trying to out-weird the Toyota Prius hybrid’s styling.

I think people who are serious about buying an EV overlook things like looks. Others will talk about looks and how they want 250 miles of range (i.e. I'll do the "right" thing, but I shouldn't have to make any compromise).

I'm not a fan of Leaf's looks, but I leased it, while waiting for something better to come along.

 

[TEG]

I think people who are serious about buying an EV overlook things like looks...

Yep. Too bad we have to compromise. But there are so many other things good about the Leaf that questionable styling wasn't quite a deal breaker.