I find the case study of EVs in Norway truly fascinating. (Hydropower resource development has also been a model of success, although rather unique geographically.) When a country and its leaders openly get behind a goal, it clearly happens quickly. As the United States becomes a net oil exporter in coming years, some similarities emerge. Question is whether politicians in this country will ever be able to even state a goal, let alone get behind it. At least we can see the Tesla success globally!
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@Bearman & @SwedishAdvocate - thanks for pointers to savings for Norwegian Tesla owners. Pretty significant money.
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@Pacmac - thanks for the explanations!
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@Freeride,
Wow! CO2 tax on regular cars but not Tesla, 0 VAT instead of 25% plus all those parking and driving and charging options... plus apparently an income tax benefit and a reduction in an annual fee (per other discussion). Talk about incentives... and I realize that these aren't subsidies per se but they certainly make Tesla attractive. Strike that: electric cars, of which Tesla is the prime example.
Do you know what kind of treatment as-yet hypothetical hydrogen fuel cell vehicles would receive? Would it vary depending on whether their hydrogen was created from a clean source, e.g., electrolyzed water, versus a dirty source, e.g., fracking + Steam Methane Reforming?
Also, why any dirty looks at all? Here in the States, I find people hanging out of pickup trucks to give me a thumbs up.
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@Pacmac - thanks for the explanations!
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@Freeride,
Wow! CO2 tax on regular cars but not Tesla, 0 VAT instead of 25% plus all those parking and driving and charging options... plus apparently an income tax benefit and a reduction in an annual fee (per other discussion). Talk about incentives... and I realize that these aren't subsidies per se but they certainly make Tesla attractive. Strike that: electric cars, of which Tesla is the prime example.
Do you know what kind of treatment as-yet hypothetical hydrogen fuel cell vehicles would receive? Would it vary depending on whether their hydrogen was created from a clean source, e.g., electrolyzed water, versus a dirty source, e.g., fracking + Steam Methane Reforming?
Also, why any dirty looks at all? Here in the States, I find people hanging out of pickup trucks to give me a thumbs up.
riegetor
Member
People are envious of the incentives. Envy is big in Scandinavia. See the law of Jante, as referenced in the previous post. Society is very egalitarian here, and if some people suddenly drive around in luxury cars, people get suspiscious and envious.
Environmentalist say it's wrong that EVs are VAT free when bikes are not. However, the VAT exemption was created to support the development of new, more environmentally friendly transportation, create a market, get the technology mass produced to get the economy of scale running so that EVs would become price competitive with polluting cars. Bikes don't need that. Lower prices on bikes won't increase usage in a cold country like Norway and it just won't create radically better, more environmentally friendly bikes.
Some bus drivers want the EVs out of the bus lanes, complaining that there are so many EVs now that some buses use 10 minutes longer to get into Oslo.
Some environmentalists complain that the CO2 footprint of an EV isn't all that much lower than a petrol or diesel car, if they add the CO2 footprint of producing the car. Thus, we have endless debates regarding CO2 footprints of batteries, refining oil into petrol and diesel, NOx and nano-sized diesel particle emissions creating toxic clouds in major cities in the winter, etc.
Some economists point out it would be cheaper to buy CO2 quotas and not use them than give incentives to rich people buying luxury cars. But then again, the price of European CO2 quotas are unsustainably low.
Some economists have been calculating the loss of tax revenue by allowing all these luxury cars to be sold without taxes and VAT. Highly dubious calculations, as most Norwegian Tesla buyers wouldn't have afforded the car even with VAT added to the price, much less with 50-100% tax added.
Some hardcore political bicyclists are against EVs because they think there enough cars in the city centre already, and they fear EVs use of the bus lane will make more people drive into city centre rather than use public transport.
Leftists think it's wrong to give incentives to rich people who can afford to buy new cars.
This has all been compounded by the sheer size of Tesla's success. I honestly thought they'd sell around 500 Model S the first yea, and I laughed when celebrity environmentalist Frederic Hauge spoka at the Elon Musk visit in spring 2013, and promised to make the Model S the most sold car in Norway. And I'm an fanboy.
I guess it's easy to give advantages to a very small group of weirdos driving tiny experimental cars, and some something completely different else when 20% of all new cars are EVs and half of them are american luxury cars which doesn't look even remotely pitiful.
It's not that people are massively against Teslas or EVs here. Far from it. Most are positive. The word of mouth goes around. People see that their friends, relatives, neighbour, collegaues are happy with their EVs and thus it's not a scary experiment to buy an EV here.
Instead of kicking EVs out of the bus lane, politicians are considering creating an EV only lane on the E18 motorway in addition to the bus lane, reducing the number of lanes for pollutant traffic. That would increase the EV sales quite a lot.
I have compressed your post to demonstrate the potential for a very big problem; I don't think there's a need to state exactly what it is. It also is something I have mentioned a few times here in the USA - I read an awful lot of comments from Tesla owners that one of (not the only, now!) reasons for and benefits of owning a Tesla is the ability to drive in our so-called HOV lanes.
Those of us in this forum, and other EV proponents, also of course are hopeful of the eventual dominance of EVs on our roads. Regardless of the strength of egalitarianism in any particular society, to the extent EVs proliferate is proportional to the extent to which their access to HOV and other restricted-access lanes must be diminished.
Ya cain't have both, cowboyz 'n cupcakes.
callmesam
Member
Eventually, the HOV lane will disappear, but EVs are likely to stay at least until that date.
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
@ fredag & AudubonB
I live in Sweden (didn't see that one coming – did you :wink
, and I'm convinced egalitarianism isn't the problem here. At least not in Sweden. Instead, the problem is the people that can afford to buy electric, and who can also fit an electric car into their daily lives, but for some reason choose not to buy an electric car. Instead they drive an ICE-vehicle and/or prioritize other forms of material consumption and/or excessive leisurely air travel.
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I would argue on the contrary! Egalitarianism is key to Tesla’s success in Norway. Remember:
Like Henry Ford said (paraphrasing): People should be able to buy your product…
I live in Sweden (didn't see that one coming – did you :wink
, and I'm convinced egalitarianism isn't the problem here. At least not in Sweden. Instead, the problem is the people that can afford to buy electric, and who can also fit an electric car into their daily lives, but for some reason choose not to buy an electric car. Instead they drive an ICE-vehicle and/or prioritize other forms of material consumption and/or excessive leisurely air travel.- - - Updated - - -
I would argue on the contrary! Egalitarianism is key to Tesla’s success in Norway. Remember:
Or:
Like Henry Ford said (paraphrasing): People should be able to buy your product…
Oreo
Member
AC1K
Member
Norway has crazy tax on engine size and output to my knowledge which is why you rarely see a V8
someone did the math and over a couple years the Tesla 60 works out to be cheaper than a Golf GTI
someone did the math and over a couple years the Tesla 60 works out to be cheaper than a Golf GTI
iKhalid
Member
Hahaha that's my main charging power at home and I'm happy with it so far
:biggrin:
Speaking of Norway, this weekend 399 EVs were gathered in a single parade: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbfybfw3-YE
Since we're all Tesla fans here you might want to skip to 8:30.
Since we're all Tesla fans here you might want to skip to 8:30.
Only one Roadster, but lots of Teslas. A large number of Leafs but not many i3s, though of course they have not been available for very long.
An interesting article, if somewhat depressing (to me) point of view. Thanks for the clarification.
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Wow, @fredag, that's a lot of alternative ways of "looking the gift horse in the mouth", as we say in some parts of the States. Having said that, I do know environmentalists in the US who can manage to find something wrong with pretty much any solution that doesn't revolve around simply eliminating a whole bunch of people and somehow living a simple life that involves no modern accoutrements.
Right now, I'd say that the Norwegian example is being cited frequently here, and enviously, as a model that is working very well and hence a model for the US. A clean grid, something of a shared political goal to increase the use of EVs, etc.
Thanks,
Alan
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Wow, @fredag, that's a lot of alternative ways of "looking the gift horse in the mouth", as we say in some parts of the States. Having said that, I do know environmentalists in the US who can manage to find something wrong with pretty much any solution that doesn't revolve around simply eliminating a whole bunch of people and somehow living a simple life that involves no modern accoutrements.
Right now, I'd say that the Norwegian example is being cited frequently here, and enviously, as a model that is working very well and hence a model for the US. A clean grid, something of a shared political goal to increase the use of EVs, etc.
Thanks,
Alan
William13
Active Member
I believe that the Norwegians may avoid the envy issue with the Tesla. I paid 3 times any prior car for mine in the US and the price is competitive to much small cars in Norway. As has been pointed out in other threads the Tesla is not really a "luxury" car in spite of it price. The battery costs a lot.
When enough Norwegians have the Tesla Model S it is not a few versus the collective issue any more. I expect there is a tipping point soon. I think shrinking the lanes available to the oil vehicles is the best idea.
I and perhaps many Norwegians bought the car to promote an oil free, sustainable future.
When enough Norwegians have the Tesla Model S it is not a few versus the collective issue any more. I expect there is a tipping point soon. I think shrinking the lanes available to the oil vehicles is the best idea.
I and perhaps many Norwegians bought the car to promote an oil free, sustainable future.
AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
I would love to see that as well, but it's not very likely, considering that there are zero incentives to speak of over here (yeah, no road tax for ten years, but that means a few hundred Euro max) and the Model S is far more expensive than its better equipped competition.
I really hate the German government stance on EVs: no subsidies or incentives to consumers, the cars will sell by themselves.
Yeah, right.
Norway has understood what has to be done. Model S is an absolute bargain over there. If I lived in Norway, I would have a Model S already (even though it is too large for our needs and would be sold again once Gen III arrives). As it is, I have to wait for Gen III.
Oh and of course Norway is in a very lucky position anyway. They have large oil resources yet at the same time abundant hydro power. So much in fact, that they can sell their oil an make huge profits that can be channeled to benefit their society.
Surely something to applaud while at the same time be a little envious about...
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I counted 2 roadsters (a red and a white one)
Also 1 miEV and some VW EVs (not sure what they were)
Here's the count from the Norwegian EV association:
Nissan (LEAF): 136
Tesla (mostly Model S): 112
Peugeot: 31
BMW (i3): 28
Mitsubishi (i-MiEv): 26
Misc (Buddy, Think etc): 22
Volkswagen (e-up!): 21
Renault (Zoe etc): 14
Ford (Focus Electric + one Ranger): 6
Morris Mini: 1
Volvo (C30): 1
Fiat (500): 1
Source: http://www.elbil.no/nyheter/3287-399-elbiler-i-kortesje-til-bryne
Kinda curious what the context for this little parade was! Cute
A county faire in the south east region, near Stavanger (which is the oil capital of Norway, much like Houston in the US).
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