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Off Grid Solar

Which type of off grid solar are you interested in?

  • Grid as Backup or no grid

    Votes: 14 29.2%
  • Battery as Backup for whole house (>4kW & >10kWh)

    Votes: 16 33.3%
  • Battery Backup for critical loads only (<4kW & <10kWh)

    Votes: 14 29.2%
  • Semi Portable / Emergency use for electronics (~1kW)

    Votes: 4 8.3%
  • As Add-on to grid-tie system

    Votes: 11 22.9%
  • As Stand-alone system

    Votes: 22 45.8%

  • Total voters
    48
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Quick Update: Tesla module charging going well. The charge controller brought the module to exactly 24.5 volts as requested. Going to let it sit at full charge for another day just to make sure it doesn't still try to charge. But things are looking good. Now just need to add the rest of the modules and I have a full working system. However, it won't be for long as the weather is looking like it is going start getting cold overnight. So, need to pay close attention to battery temps. Once it starts getting to cold consistently, I will need to go back to lead acid until I can find a solution to the cold weather charging issue. In the mean time I am trying everything in my power to not buy more panels (just don't have the free cash at the moment).
 
Everything is still working well with my tests. This will probably be the last weekend I will be running the Tesla modules. It's starting to just get too cold overnight. But before I switch back to lead, I am going to connect three modules in parallel and see if I can get a normal daily charge out of it for my Tesla. I typically use about 10~11kwh to go from work to home, so hopefully three fully charged modules will get enough juice into the car without having to switch back to grid connection to complete the charge. Eventually my plans are to upgrade the inverter to 48volts. Then I will be using all 6 of the Tesla modules (3 parallel groups of 2 modules in series). It should also help make charging more efficient. Before I do that however I need a lot more panels. Might wait for spring before any serious upgrades though. In the mean time, I want to do a lot of clean-up with wiring and etc. Also need to come up with a good battery enclosure. Lots more to do.
 
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A small problem I have noticed. Originally I thought I was getting a lower output than expected from my solar panels. Well what is actually happening is that my charge controller is way off in it's calculations. This weekend we had a lots of sun. During 11 to 2pm my circuit breakers started tripping. Huh? The charge controller was only showing like ~20 amps. But I was quickly tripping my 30 amp breakers. Just to make sure i didn't have a bad breaker, I swapped it with a fuse. That fuse didn't last long. So I am a bit puzzled as to why the charge controller is inaccurate in it's amp readings. This is of course bad, because the charge controller is not clipping the input to prevent more current flow than it's rated for. The voltage is correct however. So I re-configured the controller to lower it's amp limit to try to prevent tripping the breaker. I see it's now actually "clipping" but I am not sure about the amps. I guess I will need to add my own external amp meter into the circuit to keep an eye on things util I get this straightened out. On the plus side, I now know why I immediately blew a fuse the first time I started up the charge controllers.

I will double check I am getting good grounding. Perhaps I need the external shunt option. However, it seems like these things should be much more accurate.
 
That's good to have learned, because I was really worried about the wretched #s you were posting of your panels' output. I was fearing that you'd massively wrong-wired them - much better to learn, we hope, that it's your charge controller that's kaflooey. Without going up-thread, what cc are you using?
 
That's good to have learned, because I was really worried about the wretched #s you were posting of your panels' output. I was fearing that you'd massively wrong-wired them - much better to learn, we hope, that it's your charge controller that's kaflooey. Without going up-thread, what cc are you using?

Midnite Solar Kid 30A charge controller. 2 of them actually, but only one operating at the moment. My intent is to "twin" them. 2 sets of 3 panels in series (6 panels total). 2 series of panels connected in parallel via combiner box. Panels are 60 cell and rated for 260watts. The panels are arranged east-west.

Edit: In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have bothered with the Kid controllers. My original intent was to buy a mobile compatible charge controller. The problem with these, is in order to have two of them you need to add additional circuit protection hardware (30amp fuse/breakers to each unit) over and above what you would need with just a single charge controller like a Midnite Solar Classic 150. I wanted a mobile charge controller because I was thinking I would move all of the 24volt batteries and inverters to a mobile solar trailer after I got done with playing around with them on my shed. I was then going to expand the solar array, switch to 48 volt battery arrangement and switch to a 4kw 48volt Magna Sign inverter for the shed setup. Then have the trailer array parked at work for charging there or anywhere else I needed temporary power.
 
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A 48V Magna Sine? For just 6 260W panels? And how large a battery bank?

There is no question that 48V is "better" than 24V, but overall system efficacy can lead to up-front expenses you'll never recoup. But maybe you've got plans eventually to increase your number of panels....???? (oops: you said just that in your post. Sorry!)

My experience is different from most, in that I'm totally off-grid (nearest grid is 80 miles away), and at 63ºN, our summer and winter production and demand levels swing wildly. So don't take all of my advice as necessarily appropriate for you.
 
A 48V Magna Sine? For just 6 260W panels? And how large a battery bank?

There is no question that 48V is "better" than 24V, but overall system efficacy can lead to up-front expenses you'll never recoup. But maybe you've got plans eventually to increase your number of panels....???? (oops: you said just that in your post. Sorry!)

My experience is different from most, in that I'm totally off-grid (nearest grid is 80 miles away), and at 63ºN, our summer and winter production and demand levels swing wildly. So don't take all of my advice as necessarily appropriate for you.

Yeah for my current arrangement of just 6 panels, the (2) 30amp charge controllers and 24volt inverter is plenty. But...

....Must....Have....More...Power...

The solar addiction monkey on my back must be feed ;-). I have a grid connection, none of this is being done because it makes any kind of financial sense. This is how I entertain myself, by hands-on learning.

Anyway, I wonder if anyone here has had this issue of under-reported amps from their charge controller. This one I am still very puzzled about. I don't think it's a defective controller, as both of them are exhibiting this behavior. Before I get too far off on a tangent I know I need to check-out my earth grounding configuration (piggy backed off of the larger garage, as I didn't want to install a new grounding rod). I am hoping that there is some simple issue there. Otherwise it's just the something with these charge controllers. I can't believe they would be this inaccurate right from the factory...I must have done something wrong.
 
Ok, since it's a nice sunny day, decided to take the afternoon off of work to play with the solar shed. So I dug up an analog amp meter. When I turned on the charge controller I found I was actually getting 30amps when the controller says I was getting 20amps. Odd..

Next I decided to turn on my second charge controller. It too is doing the same thing, when it reports 20amps, it is actually putting out 30amps. What is even more odd about the second charge controller is that it's also misreporting voltage. It says 24.5 volts when actually more like 23.7volts. I checked voltage on the charge controller terminal blocks themselves, so this is measuring directly off the charge controller and not through the wires where there could theoretically be some difference due to resistance of the wires or bad connection. So now I am even more puzzled.

They also don't seem to want to "twin" properly. Not sure why, tried a different cable, same issue. More investigation there too.
 
Thus far, what I have observed is that the controllers have no idea of actual current. It must be estimated via some voltage differential or some algorithm. I have found that even when completely disconnect from a load source (i.e. the panels), it will claim to measure current as the voltage bounces up or down a little due to other loads on the battery. So one lesson here never trust the Charge Controller readings, have external measurement devices. I believe that perhaps if I add the "whiz bang jr" external current detector, this will correct the issue.
 
So I have found that if I wire the two controllers independently, one connected to the east array and the other to the west array. They seem to operate much happier. Also more efficiently. It appears to be much more effective in low sun/shaded panels. But this was not shown in the instructions. They show that the panels must be wired into a common PV+ and PV- with one disconnect and GCFI. I think if as long as I wire in an additional GFCI breaker and surge suppressor to the other controller, this should be a valid configuration. I dunno.
 
Last couple days I have been running my solar shed system as two independent systems. This still seems to be working good.

To recap: I have a small 6 panel system with 3 east facing panels and 3 west facing panels. I am using 2 Midnite solar "Kid" charge controllers. I have a variety of battery options, but I am running Tesla Model S battery modules (24volts) while the weather is still warm enough.

I originally setup my system to according to the instruction manual. They recommend setting up two Kids to behave as a single controller via "twin" mode. To do this, you need to combine all of your strings of panels into a combiner box which will parallel the two strings. If you only have two strings, you may be actually be able to do this without a combiner box. But if you were to have more than two strings, you absolutely need the combiner box to put circuit breakers between the strings, otherwise it would be in danger of fire should one of the panels have a short. Anyway, once combined you have a common GFP (ground fault protection) breaker, one large breaker to accommodate the whole array, then two smaller 30amp breakers going to each Kid charge controller (they are only rated 30amps each).

So I started with it that way. I ran into a few problems with this.
1) I connected the Kid controllers to twin them using a phone cable as described in the instructions. After running the "seach/sync" mode to find kids connected to each other, I am not sure if they are actually running in twin mode as there seems to be no visual confirmation of such mode. They don't seem to communicate settings from one to the other. I had to setup each with the correct battery and voltage settings independently.
2) When the sun starts shining, the first Kid to turn becomes the only kid to turn on. Once one of the kids pulls the array voltage down, it makes the other kid think that the array voltage is too low to bother turning on and make any power.
3) With only one kid operating, the two collective arrays are too powerful for just one kid. The kids seem to be poor at measuring actual current flow (separate issue) such that the Kid does not "clip" the input from the solar arrays as expected or turn on the second kid to share the load. So the one kid gets overloaded and trips the breaker, stopping all solar charging.
4) Although the panels still produce a lot of power when paralleled together, I don't think they operate very efficiently when they are paralleled in the east-west arrangement. It would be much better if they were facing the identical direction.

So with these problems I decided to change up the configuration, despite the warnings in the instruction manual not to. Right now I am running the two arrays independently. I have one kid connected to the east and one connected to the west. Both kids are connected to the same battery negative and same battery positive (with separate 30amp beakers going to each kid). I have the east and west PV- connections on a common bus bar. The PV+ from the two arrays are isolated. One goes to one kid, the other goes to the other kid. I have the surge suppressor and GFP breaker going to one kid and intent to connect the other kid with it's own GFP breaker and surge suppressor. I don't have a surge suppressor or GFP breaker on one of the kids at the moment while I wait for parts. One of the arrays just goes for it's array PV+ breaker directly to the kid. All devices are on a common earth ground.

I have been running this configuration for a couple days now. The kids seem much happier in that they are not being overloaded. One array is properly sized for one kid. Also they kid can now independently control array voltage. This seems to help in the early morning/late afternoon. In late afternoon the west array is getting direct sunlight and is producing much more current and the optimum voltage seems to be at a high voltage (~90 to 100 volts). While the shaded array is still producing power but can be allowed to operate at a much lower voltage ~40volts. This seems to be more optimal. I think I am getting much more total power from the system when I operate it this way. Just yesterday it was a dark cloudy day, but I still got over 2+ kwhs of juice into the battery (almost fully charged a dead tesla module).

There are a few downsides to this configuration unfortunately. For one, I need twice the number of some misc components. Such as the GFP and surge suppressor. There is more wiring as well. However, the biggest danger to this setup as far as I can tell is that I have poor control over charging the batteries themselves. For instance: on a lead-acid battery setup, there are bulk charge, absorb, and float charge modes. When one controller is trying to go into absorb, the other might still be in bulk or float. Thus not getting the proper absorption time. There are also other possible issues relating to float charge effectively boiling the batteries dry. Another problem with in-accurate cut-off amps. So there are real reasons why this might be bad. I think if I can at least get the two kids to communicate with each other, those issues would be mitigated, regardless if they are connected as one array or two independent arrays.

The other thing to note, is some of these issues might not be a problem for the lithium ion setup (Tesla modules). I don't need to go from bulk charge to absorption time (rest period). I just need to go from constant current (i.e. bulk charge) to constant voltage (i.e. float charge). I am not fully charging the modules, so I don't think I need to worry about minimum amp cut-off. However, If I was fully charging the modules to near 100% SOC, I would definitely want a minimum amp cut-off.

Anyone with some more thoughts on this? Anyone think I am heading to disaster with a flaming solar shed in my future?
 
Are you tying PV- and Battery- together on the same bus bar? That may explain you having wrong amp reading in your PV controllers.

Anyone think I am heading to disaster with a flaming solar shed in my future?

Yes, I think you are. You need to run cell monitoring charge/discharge cutoff with Tesla modules. And mention of "dead" Tesla module is also a concern. You run the risk of over discharging it, unbalancing it then catching some fireworks once you attempt to charge it back to 24.5V or 4.08V per cell, but end up overcharging one of the series cell groups due to unbalance.
 
Are you tying PV- and Battery- together on the same bus bar? That may explain you having wrong amp reading in your PV controllers.



Yes, I think you are. You need to run cell monitoring charge/discharge cutoff with Tesla modules. And mention of "dead" Tesla module is also a concern. You run the risk of over discharging it, unbalancing it then catching some fireworks once you attempt to charge it back to 24.5V or 4.08V per cell, but end up overcharging one of the series cell groups due to unbalance.


PV- and Battery negative are not tied together. The two controllers seem to operate better and more accurately when I started running each string independently.

Dead Tesla modules? I haven't killed any yet, so no dead Tesla modules. As far as BMS goes, I am using a Cell log to manual monitor the cell voltages. If one group gets out of balance, I will have to rebalance it. But so far with as many cycles that are on them, they have a delta Voltage of 22mV or so when near fully charged. So they don't seem to need it. I won't be fully charging them or fully discharging them or pushing them really in anyway. So no BMS for now. That said, it doesn't mean I won't do a BMS in the future. Seems like a fun new project to get into.
 
There is probably a current shunt on the negative side inside the charge controllers. If you parallel two of them - by tying two controllers to the same PV- and same BAT- points, you will effectively parallel two current shunts together and half their resistance + wire resistance. That may explain why both controllers were reading 20A while real current was 30A...

Be careful with Tesla modules without cell by cell automatic cutoff. There was one guy in Canada that burned down his garage with 6 Tesla modules mounted in his EV converted Jeep. I would get all of flammable stuff out of that shed, and physically separate the modules to they cannot catch fire from each other. Make sure to monitor cell imbalance often. If any of those tiny cell fuse wires are broken, the module may unbalance faster.
 
Be careful with Tesla modules without cell by cell automatic cutoff.

But Tesla doesn't even have cell by cell automatic cutoff. In fact there isn't even module by module level cutoffs. They just hook the power in and let it go until it reaches the voltage they want. And when you charge over 93% the BMS in each module goes into balancing mode an bleeds off the string(s) that are higher voltage to bring them down and balance the module.

The most important things are not over charging, not charging too fast towards the top, and thermal management.
 
I should have been clearer... Be careful using Tesla modules without BMS monitoring each cell voltage and automatically controlling your solar charger and load to terminate charge or discharge cycle if any cells get out of safe voltage range.

BMS is native to the individual modules... unless the modules have been disassembled they have BMS.

BbwZ3mtDtDwC.jpg
 
Right. But are those BMS boards sending signals to his charge controllers and loads? I don't think so... I am not aware of anyone reverse engineering those BMS boards to make them useful yet.

That's not the purpose of BMS; it works independently. The charge controller and load will ensure that module voltage is kept in spec. BMS ensures cell voltage is kept in tolerance. If module voltage is in spec then BMS can keep cell voltage in spec. You just have to monitor module voltage. BMS takes care of cell voltage.

As far as I'm aware the module BMS never communicates with the car (I think it may send a healthy signal). It's designed to work independently.
 
You don't know what you talking about. BMS absolutely has to send cell voltages to the host controller. What happens if few cells crap out and now instead of 74 cells in parallel you got 72 cells and now your 230Ah cell group lost 6Ah of capacity? Not monitoring cell voltages at a host level would be crazy.