Off-Grid Test with fully charged PowerWalls

[gpez]

The issue I am having is trying to figure out what frequency my inverter(s) need. I have (2) ABB brand inverters, not the popular solar edge that many have. I have managed to find the manual for my inverter online, but not quite sure where to look in there to ensure I am relaying the correct information to Tesla to get this corrected.

Would any of you very smart people be able to look at the manual if I uploaded it to tell me what frequency these need, or alternatively tell me what I should be looking for in the manual?

Totally fair

+1 to helping if you can post a link or PDF. Something to look for is if they are UL 1741 SA certified. To meet that cert the inverter must go offline within 0.16s if the frequency exceeds 62hz. http://media3.ev-tv.me/UL-1741-Supplement-A_Webinar.pdf page 11. The AAB PVI 5000/6000s are: https://library.e.abb.com/public/056a93c2644e4f15b55475647c6e0156/PVI-5000-EN-Rev E.pdf, "safety and compliance" page 3.

 

[jjrandorin]

View attachment 506548

Sure, we'll give it a try if you can post a PDF.

Thanks! The inverters I have are:

ABB PVI - 4.2 -OUTD -S - US -Z -A
ABB PVI - 3.0 -OUTD -S - US -Z -A

The manual I found has the part number but without the Z... I cant find one with the Z in it. I cant upload the manual here because the site says its too large. I dont want to make people go to google drive or something so here is the link to it on the website:

https://library.e.abb.com/public/5c56393f1c9c734185257cda007edfe3/PVI-3.0-3.6-3.8-4.2-TL-OUTD-S-US (-A) Product manual.pdf
View attachment 506548 View attachment 506549 View attachment 506548

 

[power.saver]

From my reading, on page 73, this inverter is UL1741 compliant, and in the Adjustable Grid Frequency Range, it is specified for 57-60.5 Hz. This is typical for pre -SA inverters, and will shut down at 60.5 Hz. While I can't speculate what the -Z option might add, I think you will be okay with 61Hz max to ensure shut-off.

When I had Tesla change mine, they ran a live test before setting the value, where I went off-grid and let solar charge the batteries and they monitored the frequency that shut-off the inverters. When they saw that mine shut off at 60.5Hz like I told them, they agreed to set the upper limit to 61Hz. Running such a test will confirm that it works for you.

 

[gpez]

From my reading, on page 73, this inverter is UL1741 compliant, and in the Adjustable Grid Frequency Range, it is specified for 57-60.5 Hz. This is typical for pre -SA inverters, and will shut down at 60.5 Hz. While I can't speculate what the -Z option might add, I think you will be okay with 61Hz max to ensure shut-off.

When I had Tesla change mine, they ran a live test before setting the value, where I went off-grid and let solar charge the batteries and they monitored the frequency that shut-off the inverters. When they saw that mine shut off at 60.5Hz like I told them, they agreed to set the upper limit to 61Hz. Running such a test will confirm that it works for you.

Would tend to agree however the footnote states "(2) adjustable from 60.2hz to 63.0hz". I would suggest checking how the inverters are actually configured which will take the guesswork out.

 

[jjrandorin]

Would tend to agree however the footnote states "(2) adjustable from 60.2hz to 63.0hz". I would suggest checking how the inverters are actually configured which will take the guesswork out.

Is this something tesla can check remotely? I mean, they "should" be able to, but its tesla we are talking about and this is a solar city product that was installed in early 2016.

 

[gpez]

Is this something tesla can check remotely? I mean, they "should" be able to, but its tesla we are talking about and this is a solar city product that was installed in early 2016.

Are your PVI-3.0/4.2s somehow connected to the internet somehow? If so then I'd guess Tesla could, if not then there wouldn't be a way. In the manuals I see online the PVIs only support RS-485 serial communication with each other and while they have RJ-45 connectors (your standard ethernet plug) they're only to daisy chain inverters to each other rather than to a local network or the internet. I could be wrong.

In section 13 of this manual it says you can check and configure the "frequency ride-through" by accessing the Service Menu on your inverter themselves:

"This inverter provides parameters to respond to under-frequency and over-frequency events. If frequency excursions occur, the inverter is designed to continue operating normally for a specified delay. Beyond the programmed delay the inverter disconnects from the grid in the event of an abnormal voltage (*I think this a copy/paste error from the voltage section and should say frequency) condition. The frequency ride-through parameters can be modified by accessing the Service menu"​

At the top of that section it says how to get access to the Service menu:

"The grid support functions that are equipped on this inverter are described in the following sections. Access to settings under the Service menu require a time-limited password, which can be obtained by calling ABB solar inverter technical support at 1-877-261-1374. This quick installation guide provides an overview of the available grid support functions. For complete details, refer to the technical manual at www.abb.com/solarinverters."​

 

[bob_p]

Yes, Tesla can check your off-grid/full PW frequency setting. They were able to do that over the phone.

But before tech support would make the change (for a customer), they evidently have to elevate this to "tier 2" technical support before the change is made.

If an installer calls, they can probably get this changed over the phone, once they've verified the inverters/microinverters being used.

Agree with two comments above:

• Getting UPS that work at 65Hz is the wrong solution. Other devices don't work properly at 65Hz and if the highest usage devices refuse to work at all at 65Hz, you could be stuck at 65Hz for hours, running the remaining devices at frequencies higher than they are designed. After my test this week, I may have to throw out one of our UPS systems, that appears to have been fried by 65Hz...
• We added at 14-50 outlet to the breaker panel run off the PowerWalls. Our two HPWCs (both running at 48A) are connected directly to the grid. If we find we are off-grid for an extended period, or we are generating more solar power than we can use, we'll use the 14-50 outlet for at least some of the charging for our S & X

 

[jjrandorin]

Are your PVI-3.0/4.2s somehow connected to the internet somehow? If so then I'd guess Tesla could, if not then there wouldn't be a way. In the manuals I see online the PVIs only support RS-485 serial communication with each other and while they have RJ-45 connectors (your standard ethernet plug) they're only to daisy chain inverters to each other rather than to a local network or the internet. I could be wrong.

In section 13 of this manual it says you can check and configure the "frequency ride-through" by accessing the Service Menu on your inverter themselves:

"This inverter provides parameters to respond to under-frequency and over-frequency events. If frequency excursions occur, the inverter is designed to continue operating normally for a specified delay. Beyond the programmed delay the inverter disconnects from the grid in the event of an abnormal voltage (*I think this a copy/paste error from the voltage section and should say frequency) condition. The frequency ride-through parameters can be modified by accessing the Service menu"​

At the top of that section it says how to get access to the Service menu:

"The grid support functions that are equipped on this inverter are described in the following sections. Access to settings under the Service menu require a time-limited password, which can be obtained by calling ABB solar inverter technical support at 1-877-261-1374. This quick installation guide provides an overview of the available grid support functions. For complete details, refer to the technical manual at www.abb.com/solarinverters."​

I did read that, yes. The small tesla gateway is connected to the internet (hard wired to a router I am using as an access point in the garage, currently). Before the powerwalls, I could see solar production in the tesla app (and previous to that, the solar city app) so I am assuming the devices communicate with tesla to get production. I had no CTs or anything before the powerwalls, and tesla had a vested interest in being able to see production so they can bill me for the energy (on a PPA).

So, I am assuming (I know, assumptions) that they should be able to access it... but I dont know if that gateway just sends them data, or if they can change settings on the inverter with it.

I dont understand those settings in the service menu part of the manual, and because, in general, one shouldnt play with service menu's when they dont under stand them, I didnt want to pursue that angle further for myself, but would rather tesla configure it if possible.

 

[power.saver]

You're not going to be able to access the Service Menu without the installer password, and I doubt ABB will provide you one if you are not a certified installer. And you're right, going in there can do more harm if you change something accidently. Based on the date of your install (2016) I find it highly unlikely that the default values would have been changed. They might have, but I don't think so. Fortunately, you don't need access to verify this. Once your PWs are installed, run the test I described, and note the frequency at the point when they shut down. That's what Tesla is going to do anyway. Try to do this right after the install is finished as part of commissioning test while they are still on-site.

 

[jjrandorin]

You're not going to be able to access the Service Menu without the installer password, and I doubt ABB will provide you one if you are not a certified installer. And you're right, going in there can do more harm if you change something accidently. Based on the date of your install (2016) I find it highly unlikely that the default values would have been changed. They might have, but I don't think so. Fortunately, you don't need access to verify this. Once your PWs are installed, run the test I described, and note the frequency at the point when they shut down. That's what Tesla is going to do anyway. Try to do this right after the install is finished as part of commissioning test while they are still on-site.

Thats too late, because the powerwalls are already installed (as of jan 6th). I read your test, and it sounds like something that they can monitor remotely at least on the powerwall side of things (get them on the phone, explain the issue, set an appointment to test it, and have them lower the value in the powerwall and see if the solar inverters go off).

I wanted to be able to make the request from an informed point of view like you did " hello tesla can you change the frequency on the powerwalls from 65 hz to 6X hz because the higher frequency is damaging my electronic devices in the home". I am an IT professional, so am familiar with things like "service menus" and know what to mess with and what not to, based on my skill set (or lack of) in a particular area, lol.

I just also know that, if you make a concise request, its more likely to be honored so was wanting to find the value to request they change it to, rather than asking them to troubleshoot it with me.

 

[power.saver]

Okay, didn't realize they were already installed. So I called and said the frequency was too high, and I wanted it lowered to just over what was needed to turn off the inverters (61Hz in my case). They told me to disconnect the grid and they would monitor the point when the solar was shut down. About 30 minutes later, they called back and said they determined it was at 60.5Hz and agreed to set the max frequency to 61Hz. After they did the change, they asked me to retest it to verify it works. And it did.

 

[bmah]

Okay, didn't realize they were already installed. So I called and said the frequency was too high, and I wanted it lowered to just over what was needed to turn off the inverters (61Hz in my case). They told me to disconnect the grid and they would monitor the point when the solar was shut down. About 30 minutes later, they called back and said they determined it was at 60.5Hz and agreed to set the max frequency to 61Hz. After they did the change, they asked me to retest it to verify it works. And it did.

Although it would have been great if doing this testing and configuration was a part of the standard installation, I am glad to see that the process is much streamlined compared to when I did this dance late last year...it required two technician visits and multiple emails to get solved.

Bruce.

 

[power.saver]

Since this is a configurable parameter, and the default is ridiculously high, it should be part of the commission testing procedure.

 

[miimura]

Since this is a configurable parameter, and the default is ridiculously high, it should be part of the commission testing procedure.

While I agree with you, the problem with that is that the batteries have to be full. It took 3 days to fill my batteries in Backup Mode before they were full. My install was in February 2018 and my solar is small.

 

[bob_p]

This appears to be a setting that only Tesla can change.

When our installer configured our system (I have an IT background), I watched as he went through the installer menu, and didn't see any place where the solar inverter shutdown frequency can be set.

It appears this can be set only by Tesla remotely.

And, I completely agree, this should be part of every installation - having the frequency set to a value as close as possible to 60Hz that shuts down the inverters.

Unfortunately for most PowerWall owners, they won't find out about this problem until they have their PowerWalls fully charged, they lose grid power, and then discover they have multiple problems - which won't be resolved until the PowerWalls bleed down charge (made harder since the highest energy consuming devices may not work at 65Hz).

 

[charlesj]

The issue I am having is trying to figure out what frequency my inverter(s) need. I have (2) ABB brand inverters, not the popular solar edge that many have. I have managed to find the manual for my inverter online, but not quite sure where to look in there to ensure I am relaying the correct information to Tesla to get this corrected.

...

Call to the inverter company? I called Enphase about this for my panel inverters, 61Hz but they can do something, forgot what, to happen at 62.5 Hz. Will call them after installation.
I also have a plug in meter, KillAWatt that can measure frequency, VA, etc.

 

[jjrandorin]

Call to the inverter company? I called Enphase about this for my panel inverters, 61Hz but they can do something, forgot what, to happen at 62.5 Hz. Will call them after installation.
I also have a plug in meter, KillAWatt that can measure frequency, VA, etc.

I thought of that, too but...

ABB quits solar inverter business, takes $430 million charge

I might be able to get information from them via phone, but since when I was searching I found an article that said they were "quiting the inverter business" and selling it off, its "unlikely" I am going to get a lot of help by calling them, I think.

 

[aesculus]

I need to make the call to Fronius tomorrow for the same info. I have two of their inverters and one is from 2015 and the other 2018 so they may be different.

Then I will call Tesla to find out what my setting is and have them make changes as appropriate.

 

[bob_p]

Surely Tesla will know what frequency is needed based on the inverters/microinverters that have been installed.

This is such an obvious problem, they should probably add this as a configuration setting for installers - and not something Tesla does on their end...

 

[charlesj]

I thought of that, too but...

ABB quits solar inverter business, takes $430 million charge

I might be able to get information from them via phone, but since when I was searching I found an article that said they were "quiting the inverter business" and selling it off, its "unlikely" I am going to get a lot of help by calling them, I think.

Oh boy, a Swiss company, harder to call.