On-Grid Issues

[DrSmile]

I'm having massive issues with utility line voltage sagging and screwing up both the Solar inverter production as well as my 2 PW2 functions. My grid voltage will sag below 210 volts, and it seems the SolarEdge inverter can only pump out a specific amount of amps, so as it tries to match the line voltage the amount pumped back to the grid sags similarly, I'm loosing about 15% of production because of this into the afternoon. Worse, once it dips below 210 volts the Inverter trips and starts cycling every 5 minutes. This immediately leads to the Powerwalls turning on, but somehow they also try to match the lowered voltage, leading to pretty much nothing working in my house: the A/C compressor never kicks on even though the unit fans run, my garage door open half way then stops, my UPSs to the computers kick in and drain, then shut off everything connected to them. This lasts from about 3pm-8pm. If I'm home, I can manually trip the breaker in the PW gateway and run offgrid, but with my A/C units pulling 8KW this isn't really a viable solution once the sun starts going down after 5:30pm. I've contacted PSEG here but so far they don't seem to care. Tesla says my grid is garbage and the worst they've ever seen, they don't seem to be able to fix it. Similarly my solar company says there's nothing they can do even though I'm losing about 25% of my daily production once the system shuts down.

Has anyone run into this? I'm basically worse off with the PWs than without them, it's quite frustrating.

 

[miimura]

This is clearly a utility issue. Find out what the specification is for what voltage range the utility is supposed to be providing. Escalate it to a customer service supervisor. If that doesn't work, find out how to file a written complaint. If you still don't get any resolution, file a complaint with your government utility regulator.

 

[gpez]

+1 on the utility issue. Ultimately they need to fix it. Until then...

You're perfectly describing the behavior of a UL1741SA certified inverter responding to "Low Voltage 1 (LV1)" which is when voltage drops below 88% of nominal and will recheck every 600 seconds. The math checks out: 210/240 = 87.5% and 600s = 5 minutes.

So I wonder if you're experiencing the frequency problem with Powerwalls that myself and many others have. My guess here is that when the Powerwall detects the grid's voltage is out of spec and disconnects you from the utility that the Powerwall then cranks your home frequency to 66hz which is the default when the Powerwall is full or near fully charged. This is very fixable but requires Tesla to update your configuration (details in the linked post below). Since this frequency is so much higher than standard utility frequency (60hz) it would cause all of the problems you listed: issues with motors, UPSes, etc. The only thing throwing me off here is the statement that you can flip the utility breaker and that fixes the issue. Maybe that's just a coincidence?

Couple of suggestions:

1) Next time this happens and the Powerwall kicks in can you measure what the frequency and voltage you're getting is? Some UPSes display this information, you can use a multimeter or Kill-a-watt (or similar) device, or use the Powerwall APIs.
2) Try an off grid test when the grid is functioning correctly by throwing the utility breaker. Do this when the sun is out and your Powerwall is fully charged. Check your UPSes then. If they're still complaining you have the frequency problem.

Check out My grid outage frequency issue is resolved! for more details about the frequency issue.

 

[DrSmile]

If I throw the breaker when the utility power is normal everything works just fine. I've escalated it to a supervisor but no one calls me back. 8 phone calls in so far...

 

[MorrisonHiker]

If I throw the breaker when the utility power is normal everything works just fine. I've escalated it to a supervisor but no one calls me back. 8 phone calls in so far...

You could try filing a complaint with the public utilities commission.

In our neighborhood, we've noticed that our voltage drops from 240V to 220V most mornings. While we don't have problems with our Powerwalls kicking in, our cars to charge slower and the Teslas cut back on the Amps because of the reduced voltage.

We know that our neighbors have an indoor pool and there are 5 or 6 houses all on the same 25 kVA pole-mount transformer. We made an initial complaint about the reduced voltages and they sent an employee out with a small hair dryer/heat gun and he tested it for a minute or so in the afternoon and said there wasn't a problem. We complained again and they said that we'd have to pay like $8000 to have a study done and to have the transformer upgraded. We mentioned that the transformer was probably sized and installed decades ago, before the neighbor put in their pool and before we had electric cars and that it isn't sufficient to handle the load of four houses. They said it's our fault for "buying smart cars". Since we didn't make any progress through the utility directly, I'm thinking of filing a complained with the public utilities commission and see if that makes a difference. Another option would be the Better Business Bureau. We've had good response rate to our issues when filing complaints against the local newspaper which continues to randomly deliver papers to us month after month, year after year.

 

[DrSmile]

Thank you gpez, you were right regarding the frequency issue. It doesn't solve my utility voltage problem but hopefully once the Powerwall kicks in everything should work as designed. Tesla said they should have it fixed within 24 hours. I didn't realize I had this problem because the voltage would drop in the afternoon when the solar power generated was not enough to recharge the Powerwall and run 8KW of air conditioners. Therefore the Powerwall would only raise the frequency when first turned on. I didn't realize it affected not just my UPS but also my air conditioners and garage door.

PSE&G did show up today and acknowledged there is an issue after measuring my voltage, but then they left... and I haven't heard anything back yet. I will post a resolution when (if) it happens.

 

[miimura]

Thank you gpez, you were right regarding the frequency issue. It doesn't solve my utility voltage problem but hopefully once the Powerwall kicks in everything should work as designed. Tesla said they should have it fixed within 24 hours. I didn't realize I had this problem because the voltage would drop in the afternoon when the solar power generated was not enough to recharge the Powerwall and run 8KW of air conditioners. Therefore the Powerwall would only raise the frequency when first turned on. I didn't realize it affected not just my UPS but also my air conditioners and garage door.

PSE&G did show up today and acknowledged there is an issue after measuring my voltage, but then they left... and I haven't heard anything back yet. I will post a resolution when (if) it happens.

Acknowledging there is a problem is the first step toward sobriety and utility voltage stability.

 

[gpez]

Thank you gpez, you were right regarding the frequency issue. It doesn't solve my utility voltage problem but hopefully once the Powerwall kicks in everything should work as designed. Tesla said they should have it fixed within 24 hours. I didn't realize I had this problem because the voltage would drop in the afternoon when the solar power generated was not enough to recharge the Powerwall and run 8KW of air conditioners. Therefore the Powerwall would only raise the frequency when first turned on. I didn't realize it affected not just my UPS but also my air conditioners and garage door.

PSE&G did show up today and acknowledged there is an issue after measuring my voltage, but then they left... and I haven't heard anything back yet. I will post a resolution when (if) it happens.

Glad to hear! Now good luck getting the utility company to do work

 

[Unofficial]

Tesla can't fix how the solar edge is responding to the grid but they can push a high impedance firmware to the gateway that may solve this on the powerwall side.

 

[DrSmile]

Just an update. PSE&G says they upgraded the capacitor banks on the line to my house, and it does seem like the voltage is holding at least 230 volts. Despite this, I'm now having issues with the AC disconnect breaker (60 amp, my system is 13.2 KW) from the solar system tripping just as production hits maximum, around 12-1 pm. This turns the system off right at the peak production times until I get back to the house at night, which greatly limits my daily production. Today I was home when it happened, I reset the breaker, waited for the 5 min timeout, and had the breaker trip again within a few seconds. This has happened for 4 days this week, only on days with full sunshine. The Powerwalls show no issues and are on standby. When I get home and reset the breaker everything works fine until the next sunny day.

I'm getting very frustrated with the fact that I haven't had a fully sunny clean production day in the 6 weeks that the system has been operational. Has anyone else had such issues?

 

[gpez]

Just an update. PSE&G says they upgraded the capacitor banks on the line to my house, and it does seem like the voltage is holding at least 230 volts. Despite this, I'm now having issues with the AC disconnect breaker (60 amp, my system is 13.2 KW) from the solar system tripping just as production hits maximum, around 12-1 pm. This turns the system off right at the peak production times until I get back to the house at night, which greatly limits my daily production. Today I was home when it happened, I reset the breaker, waited for the 5 min timeout, and had the breaker trip again within a few seconds. This has happened for 4 days this week, only on days with full sunshine. The Powerwalls show no issues and are on standby. When I get home and reset the breaker everything works fine until the next sunny day.

I'm getting very frustrated with the fact that I haven't had a fully sunny clean production day in the 6 weeks that the system has been operational. Has anyone else had such issues?

Three thoughts:

1) Are your panels 13.2kw or your inverters 13.2kw? Additionally 13.2kw continuous or 13.2kw max? My inverters are rated for 230w continuous and 240w max so they could push ~5% higher than the system is technically capable of for a few moments. 13200w / 230v = 57.39a. Add 5% at max for a few moments and that turns in to 60.26 amps, which would trip your breaker.
2) If the system voltage drops to 220v then your 13.2kw system will exactly max out a 60 amp breaker.
3) Both #1 and #2 in some combination

Fixes?

- Artificially limit your production. Most inverters have this capability.
- Up the circuit to a bigger breaker. May not be possible due to code/safety/etc.

Either way, if your breaker is tripping I would not recommend resetting it on a regular basis due to the risk of fire.

 

[miimura]

Just an update. PSE&G says they upgraded the capacitor banks on the line to my house, and it does seem like the voltage is holding at least 230 volts. Despite this, I'm now having issues with the AC disconnect breaker (60 amp, my system is 13.2 KW) from the solar system tripping just as production hits maximum, around 12-1 pm. This turns the system off right at the peak production times until I get back to the house at night, which greatly limits my daily production. Today I was home when it happened, I reset the breaker, waited for the 5 min timeout, and had the breaker trip again within a few seconds. This has happened for 4 days this week, only on days with full sunshine. The Powerwalls show no issues and are on standby. When I get home and reset the breaker everything works fine until the next sunny day.

I'm getting very frustrated with the fact that I haven't had a fully sunny clean production day in the 6 weeks that the system has been operational. Has anyone else had such issues?

Breakers are cheap. Replace the breaker that is tripping and see if the problem goes away. I suspect that it will as long as everything was originally installed properly.

 

[woferry]

A general rule of thumb I'd always heard was that a breaker should never have a continuous load >85% of its rating, as it can trip once you get above that level. For a 60A breaker that would be 85% of 14.4kW, or 12.24kW. But it seems there isn't a SolarEdge inverter that outputs above 11.4kW or 47.5A, so that should be fine on a 60A breaker. If there really is a 13.2kW inverter it would need a >60A breaker I believe.

Now I guess it could be that the breaker is just defective and trips lower than it should, I've seen that happen before (a neighbor's AC kept tripping its breaker until the breaker was replaced, there was nothing wrong with the AC itself).

 

[DrSmile]

It is overpaneled and it uses a 11.4KW Inverter. I hope the installer comes today and can give me some answers.

 

[Dan123]

It is overpaneled and it uses a 11.4KW Inverter. I hope the installer comes today and can give me some answers.

This sounds like a bad circuit breaker.

 

[wwhitney]

This sounds like a bad circuit breaker.

Or a bad connection at the breaker, leading to excess heat, leading to premature tripping.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[NuShrike]

This sounds like a bad circuit breaker.

My 50A solar breaker at the sub-panel runs pretty hot, but doesn't randomly trip. Also bad-breaker?

The solar-combiner box's 50A seems to run cool in comparison.

 

[DrSmile]

Well, I'm back to square one

Today the line voltage dropped, the Powerwall kicked in hundreds of times, then back off. When I switched to off grid the Powerwall supplied 66 Hz, draining all my UPSs again. Another (worse) discovery is that when the frequency is dialed up, my air conditioners blow hot air and use about 1/3 of the watts they normally do. Once the Powerwall starts dialing back the frequency, everything works, but now the house is hot because the Powerwall took a long time to drain because the A/C doesn't pull a lot of power when not cooling properly. Because of this the Powerwalls run out of power rather quickly because the A/C will stay on for several hours at that point in the late afternoon when solar production is low. No fix from Tesla or PSE&G so far despite them saying everything is fixed. Really I was better off before I had these things installed...

The breaker to the solar no longer trips, my hunch on that is that the panels supply too much power when freshly cleaned, because the breaker tripped for four days right after I cleaned them, and now it works fine. So basically every time I clean the panels I can expect problems...so not awesome.

 

[MP3Mike]

Well, I'm back to square one

Today the line voltage dropped, the Powerwall kicked in hundreds of times, then back off. When I switched to off grid the Powerwall supplied 66 Hz, draining all my UPSs again. Another (worse) discovery is that when the frequency is dialed up, my air conditioners blow hot air and use about 1/3 of the watts they normally do. Once the Powerwall starts dialing back the frequency, everything works, but now the house is hot because the Powerwall took a long time to drain because the A/C doesn't pull a lot of power when not cooling properly. Because of this the Powerwalls run out of power rather quickly because the A/C will stay on for several hours at that point in the late afternoon when solar production is low. No fix from Tesla or PSE&G so far despite them saying everything is fixed. Really I was better off before I had these things installed...

It sounds like you need to get them to adjust the frequency they run up to when the Powerwalls are full. Other people have reported getting it dropped down to something like 63 Hz which still cuts off the solar inverters but doesn't wreak havoc on the house. (Assuming your solar inverters will cut off at the lower frequency.)

 

[Dan123]

Well, I'm back to square one

Today the line voltage dropped, the Powerwall kicked in hundreds of times, then back off. When I switched to off grid the Powerwall supplied 66 Hz, draining all my UPSs again. Another (worse) discovery is that when the frequency is dialed up, my air conditioners blow hot air and use about 1/3 of the watts they normally do. Once the Powerwall starts dialing back the frequency, everything works, but now the house is hot because the Powerwall took a long time to drain because the A/C doesn't pull a lot of power when not cooling properly. Because of this the Powerwalls run out of power rather quickly because the A/C will stay on for several hours at that point in the late afternoon when solar production is low. No fix from Tesla or PSE&G so far despite them saying everything is fixed. Really I was better off before I had these things installed...

The breaker to the solar no longer trips, my hunch on that is that the panels supply too much power when freshly cleaned, because the breaker tripped for four days right after I cleaned them, and now it works fine. So basically every time I clean the panels I can expect problems...so not awesome.

The breaker shouldn't trip with 11.4KW inverter, no matter how clean the panels are.

You can call PW support and ask them to adjust the frequency, it shouln't go to 66hz.