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Optimizing NEM2.0 for PG&E EV2-A rate

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It is odd that PW kicked in briefly when the car charged.

Oh, and yesterday was cloudy, which your PW may have anticipated. Mine did some grid charging, but it waited till it should see that solar was not going to make it. And, we ran our little portable AC some too, which is unusual so PW had to improvise. Anyway, today should be sunny, so maybe a different and more typical picture for both of us.

I wonder if your grid charging would be reduced if the car was charged at midnight so PW would not need to plan to cover that. Such a change in your usage may take a few days for PW to recognize as routine, so it might not have much impact on the first few days.

BTW, you can see the ~10% PW round trip loss in "yesterday's" 53.7 discharge vs 60.6 charging, assuming that the start and end SOC was the same 5%.
 
It is odd that PW kicked in briefly when the car charged.

Oh, and yesterday was cloudy, which your PW may have anticipated. Mine did some grid charging, but it waited till it should see that solar was not going to make it. And, we ran our little portable AC some too, which is unusual so PW had to improvise. Anyway, today should be sunny, so maybe a different and more typical picture for both of us.

I wonder if your grid charging would be reduced if the car was charged at midnight so PW would not need to plan to cover that. Such a change in your usage may take a few days for PW to recognize as routine, so it might not have much impact on the first few days.

BTW, you can see the ~10% PW round trip loss in "yesterday's" 53.7 discharge vs 60.6 charging, assuming that the start and end SOC was the same 5%.

More updates…behavior is evolving.

So it seems like it’s back to the sustained 11.9kW dump at 4p, getting best sell back NEM2 credits (good thing).

It’s anticipating home usage of PW drain in the evening to get right to reserve 5% at midnight without having to import in either peak or part peak. I’m really impressed. Technically speaking this is less advantageous to me, as I should dump all PW at peak and then re-import part peak later for the AC…but the PW are following my rate table, it sees it as no difference in buying/importing at 8p vs 11p…both are bad compared to <3p. I might try to get the full dump behavior back later, now that I understand the extra NEM credits are more valuable uo me then the additional NBC’s I’m currently now avoiding.

It’s weird that the PW charges the EV for a moment in AM, both yesterday and today. Yesterday it was via the CoS (red), today it was via the home load (blue). Today it dropped the PW SoC significantly, but then recovered it via Solar & GC. Feels like it should avoid this extra and unecessary wear on the PW?

@swedge gonna give the charge @ midnight a go on two EV’s. That plus PW should go full import starting at 12a. Might have to go by the main panel to hear the humming of like 45kW draw. Will give that a few days to see how it affects PW behavior.

Here is two days ago (Monday)…

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And then today (Tuesday)…

IMG_7007.png


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IMG_7011.png
 
More updates…behavior is evolving.

So it seems like it’s back to the sustained 11.9kW dump at 4p, getting best sell back NEM2 credits (good thing).

It’s anticipating home usage of PW drain in the evening to get right to reserve 5% at midnight without having to import in either peak or part peak. I’m really impressed. Technically speaking this is less advantageous to me, as I should dump all PW at peak and then re-import part peak later for the AC…but the PW are following my rate table, it sees it as no difference in buying/importing at 8p vs 11p…both are bad compared to <3p. I might try to get the full dump behavior back later, now that I understand the extra NEM credits are more valuable uo me then the additional NBC’s I’m currently now avoiding.

It’s weird that the PW charges the EV for a moment in AM, both yesterday and today. Yesterday it was via the CoS (red), today it was via the home load (blue). Today it dropped the PW SoC significantly, but then recovered it via Solar & GC. Feels like it should avoid this extra and unecessary wear on the PW?

@swedge gonna give the charge @ midnight a go on two EV’s. That plus PW should go full import starting at 12a. Might have to go by the main panel to hear the humming of like 45kW draw. Will give that a few days to see how it affects PW behavior.

Here is two days ago (Monday)…

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And then today (Tuesday)…

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It looks like it behaving a bit more like you expected. It is cool the way it manages to reach your reserve just as the rate drops. I have my 9-12 price set to the lower off-peak, so it gets itself down to my 20% reserve (only 1 PW, sigh) at 9, and does a bit of re-importing (at the lower price) from then on.

Interestingly, when the winter rates are in effect, and the partial peak buy price is higher than the peak sell (by 1¢ due to my 3 cents NBC adjustment), it does what yours did, i.e. discharge during peak, but hanging on to enough to cover the house till 12 when it gets down to the reserve. Clever beast, that PW. How does it know how much TV I'm going to watch?

It seems you are coming to understand what it does and why, with some fuzzy areas still to sus out. Like the midnight GC and the PW charging the car some.

I do hope Tesla can get your inverter straightened out soon. Not only are you underproducing, but your charts are way to jaggy. Here is mine from a cloudless day. The quick drop in the late afternoon is due to shade from tall trees to our west sweeping across the array. Hence the Enphase micro inverters to get as much as we can without taking a chainsaw to our neighbor's trees. In truth, we like the shade in the back yard, so hold off on the chainsaw please. Anyway, your solar should soon be a nice, smooth hump.

IMG_8520.jpg
 
It looks like it behaving a bit more like you expected. It is cool the way it manages to reach your reserve just as the rate drops. I have my 9-12 price set to the lower off-peak, so it gets itself down to my 20% reserve (only 1 PW, sigh) at 9, and does a bit of re-importing (at the lower price) from then on.

Interestingly, when the winter rates are in effect, and the partial peak buy price is higher than the peak sell (by 1¢ due to my 3 cents NBC adjustment), it does what yours did, i.e. discharge during peak, but hanging on to enough to cover the house till 12 when it gets down to the reserve. Clever beast, that PW. How does it know how much TV I'm going to watch?

It seems you are coming to understand what it does and why, with some fuzzy areas still to sus out. Like the midnight GC and the PW charging the car some.

I do hope Tesla can get your inverter straightened out soon. Not only are you underproducing, but your charts are way to jaggy. Here is mine from a cloudless day. The quick drop in the late afternoon is due to shade from tall trees to our west sweeping across the array. Hence the Enphase micro inverters to get as much as we can without taking a chainsaw to our neighbor's trees. In truth, we like the shade in the back yard, so hold off on the chainsaw please. Anyway, your solar should soon be a nice, smooth hump.

View attachment 965856
Yep. I was looking ahead at winter rates and realized that’s kinda how I rate set summer. And the behavior of PW makes complete sense, I may move it back for real summer rates to force complete export to 5% reserve at 9p. I’m technically leaving like9c/kWh on the table. But prob less, because it will increase my NBC. It will also wear my PW slightly more, but I think we’re only talking like a minor amount.

Inverter appointment on 8/31…lucky-ish as all other appointments are in October. My only concern is often they come out, diagnosis, and then have to schedule again (prob for Oct!). Mint used to be very smooth before, for about a month.
 
YRide,

Back to your original post, I’ve been playing around with simulating my solar/PowerWall to see how the various modes affect the true up. The answers are approximate at best, and I would not be surprised if I made mistakes in my Excel sheet. But the results are quite similar to my actual last year of bills.

Every system and every home is different, so these numbers apply to no one but me. Still, perhaps the patterns are similar to others situations.

Over the year, my solar generated 7,190 kWh, while the house and car used 9,210. I am on PG&E’s EV2-A rate and NEM2. I set my single PW backup reserve to 20%. Car charging is at night.

ModeFull Year $Better By
No Solar$ 2,777
Solar No PW$ 780$ (1,997)
PW Self Pwr$ 539$ (241)
PW TOU$ 455$ (84)
PW EE$ 182$ (272)

The simulation did not include any grid charging. The true-up was based on the cumulated energy charges, except for the EE case which used the NBC’s because the cumulative energy charges and credits was lower. By using TOU without EE during the winter, the simulation gave a slightly lower total cost because that lowered the NBCs a bit.
 
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Some stuff I have learned while messing with this:

As a net consumer, not a net generator, by definition over the course of your true-up year you will import more than you export. This means that everything you do export, you will also re-import.

But, NBCs accrue on everything you import, and are not credited on your exports.

This means that exports increase you NBCs.

Of course, exports also give credits to decrease the cumulative energy charges, and this amount is larger than the NBCs.

The problem is that if those credits take the cumulative total below the total of the NBCs, at true-up you will be charged for the NBCs instead, and more exporting will actually increase your cost.

So, you don’t want to export too much. How much is too much? Good question. That is why I did my simulation, a lot of work. Instead, perhaps keep an eye on your monthly B&Ws, assuming PG&E ever starts sending them to you. Compare the NBCs to the “BL CHG” total in theTrue-Up History Summary on page 2. Perhaps in your situation the charges will be substantial so the NBC’s won’t exceed them.

If the credits do send the cumulative charges too low, turning off EE will make future credits considerably less, and future NBCs a bit lower too. Again, the sweet spot is where the two are close together at the true-up.
 
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Some stuff I have learned while messing with this:

As a net consumer, not a net generator, by definition over the course of your true-up year you will import more than you export. This means that everything you do export, you will also re-import.

But, NBCs accrue on everything you import, and are not credited on your exports.

This means that exports increase you NBCs.

Of course, exports also give credits to decrease the cumulative energy charges, and this amount is larger than the NBCs.

The problem is that if those credits take the cumulative total below the total of the NBCs, at true-up you will be charged for the NBCs instead, and more exporting will actually increase your cost.

So, you don’t want to export too much. How much is too much? Good question. That is why I did my simulation, a lot of work. Instead, perhaps keep an eye on your monthly B&Ws, assuming PG&E ever starts sending them to you. Compare the NBCs to the “BL CHG” total in theTrue-Up History Summary on page 2. Perhaps in your situation the charges will be substantial so the NBC’s won’t exceed them.

If the credits do send the cumulative charges too low, turning off EE will make future credits considerably less, and future NBCs a bit lower too. Again, the sweet spot is where the two are close together at the true-up.
I have no choice but to export WAY too much :)
 
Did you include the 10% power loss by charging your Powerwalls, plus the daily 0.3-0.6kW/Powerwall energy costs? Just curious.
10% yes. The standby energy cost, I'm not sure. I used PW data to estimate the house consumption, and suspect the PW's own draw is included in that, because the gateway calculates the house draw as the difference between the grid, solar and PW charge/discharge flows. So, probably that was included in my consumption assumptions.

Good question! Thanks.
 
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I have no choice but to export WAY too much
So true. And if I understand how it works that means you are paying NBCs minus MDCs at true up, but that is offset by your net surplus compensation. Being a large net exporter, I expect your Cumulative Energy is a large credit come true-up, and because it is negative, you forfit it and get the miserly NSC instead. Better than nothing, I suppose. But I prefer not to give PG&E the benefit of too much export.

Oh, I actually got such a true-up! After my first NEM2 true-up in June, PG&E true-uped me (trued me up?) again in July, a one month "relevant period". Why is another story. But with that peak summertime production, my NEM balance was negative, and the $17 of NBCs was more than the monthly 11.28. So the true-up was based on the NBCs. Net surplus compensation was $4.

You gotta just love how all my numbers are so small! Small is beautiful.
 
Just got my third NEM bill (not B&W, which I still can’t get), second full month of NEM2, first month was 50% NEM2, 50% pre PTO.

Seems the partial month I was ~$50 NBC and have been ~$100 NBC the two full months. Minus $11/mo for MDC ($27.45 ytd due to partial first month), I’m at like $234 Net at trueup YTD, 2.5mo into the annual. I guess I expect this will basically be $100 a month going forward of out of pocked for true up, basically a $1,200/yr bill.

I thought I could be lower overall, but it’s not bad with the

For 2.5mo in I’m net consuming 3.6MW, for $234. That’s basically 6.5c/kWh, we’ll below any rate I could get. Even like 50% less then neighboring Santa Clara with their super cheap rates.

Then I realized because I’m on CCA, SJCE, I prob am missing a big chunk, because generation is not on the PGE line items. Last image is my NEM2 generation calculation also in the bill. Looks like 2.5mo in, I’m $196.48 at true up YTD.

So is the correct math 3.6MW total net consumption / ($234 NBC + 196.48 CCA true up) = 8.37c/kWh? If so…that’s still pretty good.

I guess it will be hard to get the NBC’s down, with CG turned on, an having 3x EV. Though one of our commutes will decrease by 20kWh/day, so free up about 4.8MW on annual basis. That plus I still likely have some NEM2 headroom to play with per below forecasting, so maybe I could go gas->elec dryer, or maybe even gas->heatpump and make the most out of those NBC’s?

I was always curious about tankless elec water heater, but that’s not an option with PW2/PW+. Think it’s maybe different story if you have 4x PW3…

Still need to make sure my GC + EE + PV gen is not exceeding the B&W/PVWatts monthly export limit.

Anyways, the (new?) PGE bill still greatly improves understandability of the costs and breakdowns.

Progress!

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I guess it will be hard to get the NBC’s down, with CG turned on, an having 3x EV. Though one of our commutes will decrease by 20kWh/day, so free up about 4.8MW on annual basis. That plus I still likely have some NEM2 headroom to play with per below forecasting, so maybe I could go gas->elec dryer, or maybe even gas->heatpump and make the most out of those NBC’s?
NBC's are charged on all imports. So, more consumption from dryer (there are heat pump dryers, btw, slow, small but efficient) and home heat pump would increase your NBCs.

Since your NEM (-$57) is running below your NBCs ($+252) you could trade these off a bit. Less exporting will do that, because everything you export, you also re-import. An easy way would be to increase your reserve some. Each day I expect you charge to 100% and export down to the reserve. So, the reserve setting determines how much you export, roughly.

You may want to think about how grid charging is affecting the numbers. It is imported during off peak and exported during peak, so it does help the NEM balance. But because it allows more export, it also increases NBCs. And NBC's are probably what you will be trued up to.

You can not get your NBCs to zero, because you are a net importer. Also, you don't want them below your MDC, but that isn't in the cards for you. But since your true-up is likely to be determined by your NBCs, keeping them low is your best strategy.

My situation is a bit different: with only one PW my solar (minus sunlight time house draw) is more than I need to fully charge. So I tend to owe more NEM than my NBCs. In my case grid charging on cloudy days does help by brining down the NEM while increasing NBCs, brining them closer together, and making the larger of the two smaller.

I do not know how your CCA works, so I can't be very certain about your best case. It looks like they just do the Gen part of the bill, and the rates are close to PG&E's. It is surprising to me that you owe on your CCA balance, but have a credit on your NEM balance. Is the CCA maybe on a different true-up calendar than PG&E? If so, your full year estimate may be off.

There appears to be only one additional number which your B&W bill will show which is missing from the pretty new color bill, that being the export limit. I doubt that will be a factor, because it is merely an estimate of your solar production. Your exports will be equal to your actual solar production, plus you grid charging, minus your house draw during sunshine hours. So, as long as you grid charge more than your house uses, you will export less than your solar production, and hence less than their estimate. You can confirm this in the Tesla app by comparing your solar production with your grid export.

Fun and games in PowerWall land!

Just a reminder: before we got solar and batteries, electricity was very simple - just flip the switch and the light goes on. Now things are a bit more complicated! For all it's faults, PG&E used to deliver simplicity and convenience pretty darn well. Now that we are, in effect, competing with our old electricity supplier, things are not so simple...
 
I have been thinking that my single PowerWall is too small to maximize my benefit. So I tweaked my simulation model to see what happens with 2 PW.

Surprise, adding a second PW would INCREASE my true-up!

While being able to export more during peak period does further lower my NEM credits, it also increases the NBCs. (I am a net importer, so everything I export gets re-imported and hence charged NBCs.) Since the NEM becomes a credit (negative) balance, the true-up is based on the NBCs, so the additional NEM credit is not beneficial.

For someone with substantial NEM balance owing, or for a large net exporter, this would not matter, and more PWs might help. But the benefit of Export Everything appears to be limited by NBCs under NEM2.

I think the optimum is at true-up to have NEMs close to NBCs and both above but as close to the MDC as possible.

Even in h2o's case of a large net exporter, the NGC's are offset at least somewhat by the true-up, so I would expect those NBCs still impose a cost.
 
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I have been thinking that my single PowerWall is too small to maximize my benefit. So I tweaked my simulation model to see what happens with 2 PW.

Surprise, adding a second PW would INCREASE my true-up!

While being able to export more during peak period does further lower my NEM credits, it also increases the NBCs. (I am a net importer, so everything I export gets re-imported and hence charged NBCs.) Since the NEM becomes a credit (negative) balance, the true-up is based on the NBCs, so the additional NEM credit is not beneficial.

For someone with substantial NEM balance owing, or for a large net exporter, this would not matter, and more PWs might help. But the benefit of Export Everything appears to be limited by NBCs under NEM2.

I think the optimum is at true-up to have NEMs close to NBCs and both above but as close to the MDC as possible.

Even in h2o's case of a large net exporter, the NGC's are offset at least somewhat by the true-up, so I would expect those NBCs still impose a cost.
Luckily, I never need to think about it. I have all one could ever do with amount of solar and PW's.
I just set, use, and keep everyone happy. And am loving free charging on the EV since we are putting on like 15K
local driving now.
 
Luckily, I never need to think about it. I have all one could ever do with amount of solar and PW's.
I just set, use, and keep everyone happy. And am loving free charging on the EV since we are putting on like 15K
local driving now.
All true. But your total cost for the year was equal to your NBCs of $213. You had already paid $131 in your monthly bills, so you were debited the difference of $82. This was subtracted from the $845 of Net Surplus Compensation which you were credited, leaving you with a nice bill credit.

If you wanted to reduce those NBC's you would need to import less. You could maybe do more self consumption, e.g. running the house more from your PW, and car charging during daylight when possible. The best you could possibly do is get down to the $130 of monthly minimums. So, probably not worth the effort or thinking about.

I'm not saying you should worry about it, but we are talking about optimization, which means finding ways to minimize how much PG&E makes off of us.

You were paid around $0.08 for each or your net exported kWh. PG&E simultaneously resold those kWh to your neighbors for probably around $0.25 each. A very good deal for PG&E it appears. Since they would have used nuclear or gas power instead, it may be a fair deal anyway, who knows.
 
All true. But your total cost for the year was equal to your NBCs of $213. You had already paid $131 in your monthly bills, so you were debited the difference of $82. This was subtracted from the $845 of Net Surplus Compensation which you were credited, leaving you with a nice bill credit.

If you wanted to reduce those NBC's you would need to import less. You could maybe do more self consumption, e.g. running the house more from your PW, and car charging during daylight when possible. The best you could possibly do is get down to the $130 of monthly minimums. So, probably not worth the effort or thinking about.

I'm not saying you should worry about it, but we are talking about optimization, which means finding ways to minimize how much PG&E makes off of us.

You were paid around $0.08 for each or your net exported kWh. PG&E simultaneously resold those kWh to your neighbors for probably around $0.25 each. A very good deal for PG&E it appears. Since they would have used nuclear or gas power instead, it may be a fair deal anyway, who knows.
last month I was 99% off the grid. I charge my car when PW's are charged, like at 1pm, so most of the time I do not charge them from the grid unless I have no choice. So I believe I am doing everything I can to no pull from the grid? Is there something I am over looking?

In the winter I am stuck since I produce so much less solar than I use from my heat pumps. I believe you have gas heat?
If so this is the thing pulling from the grid we are stuck with, even with lots of batteries. I cannot get them filled in winter
 
last month I was 99% off the grid. I charge my car when PW's are charged, like at 1pm, so most of the time I do not charge them from the grid unless I have no choice. So I believe I am doing everything I can to no pull from the grid? Is there something I am over looking?

In the winter I am stuck since I produce so much less solar than I use from my heat pumps. I believe you have gas heat?
If so this is the thing pulling from the grid we are stuck with, even with lots of batteries. I cannot get them filled in winter
Yeah, you are doing great!

Is there something I am over looking?

Since I'm trying to understand optimizing under NEM2, this is a fun query for me.

Thanks again for sharing your true-up B&W with me. That shows a lot, but PG&E does not know how much solar you produced nor how much your home and car consumption was.

We do know your true-up adjustment was only $82.03 and was equal to your NBC's minus the $130 you'd already paid in on your monthly bills. But this means that no mater what you do, you can not reduce the total cost more than $82. So the question boils down to this: if you wanted to reduce your cost that much, how would you do it.

The cost is driven by your Non-Bypassable Charges which amount to around 3 cents on every kWh you import. So you'd need to reduce your imports by around 2,700 kWh. One way is to do that much more car charging during sunny times. Once your PWs are full, without the car, your excess solar, i.e. solar minus house consumption, is exported. If you instead charge your car at the same rate as you would export, you don't export, and you don't need to import that amount later when the sun isn't shining. At 11 kW charging rate, this would be roughly 245 hours of car charging, nearly an hour per day on average, of course more in summer and less in winter.

This requires adjusting the car charge rate, or in your case also how many cars you are charging. Your solar, at up to 30kW is nearly enough to charge 3 cars at once at 11 kW each. I don't have it yet, but current Tesla car software and app allow Charge on Sunshine which is supposed to do the math and adjust the charge rate for you. Of course this only works if the cars can be plugged in during daylight after PWs are full. Car charging before PWs are full can absorb the power which means the PWs will not charge as soon, and so if your car in there in the morning but not the afternoon, it is still possible to use the sunlight directly, but this I think is not supported by CoS.

Another approach is to have the house use the grid as little as possible, regardless of TOU periods. In winter, if PW can cover your needs all night till sunup, you are golden. But with electric heat, short days and storms, there is not a lot you can do. Where a coat indoors? Still, any reduction of consumption does reduce NBCs, and any shift of consumption to solar production times also helps. Perhaps adjusting the house temp up and down a bit would let you use it as a thermal energy storage to time shift the heat pump draw into solar times? How many kWh does it take to raise the temp of the entire house by 1 degree? It may not be negligible.

But to widen the query a bit, what if you did something that increased NBCs, but increased your net generation credits even more?

As for PW controls, Export Everything increases both your exports and your imports. As a net generator, any incremental exports earn you NSC of around 8 cents, but cost you NBCs of around 3 cents, still a small net profit. Frankly, I don't even know if the net surplus compensation is TOU or seasonal, and how this would affect PW optimization. But the profit margin is small in any case.

Grid Charging on low solar days does let you time shift more consumption to off peak, thus decreasing your cost. If you didn't grid charge you'd import nearly the same kWh later on, so GC in this case does not increase NBCs. Combining GC and EE will probably give you that small EE profit on a bit more kWh, but it will be hard to see because it increases both your credit and your costs.

One aspect I'm less up to speed on is the Self Powered mode. I've been doing some simulations of my system, and it appears that this mode results in the lowest NBCs. I don't understand why this is, if it is true, and I certainly don't know if your case would be the same. In my case, it make me owe more NEM charges, so the NBCs wouldn't matter, which I why I haven't tried to figure it out.

But again, no matter what you do, the best you can get by reducing your NBC's is $82, which is probably not worth the effort of trying. Increasing your net generation compensation, likewise may be too small to be worth it.
 
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I have no choice but to export WAY too much :)
h20fun,

When exporting so much do you find that the net surplus compensation greatly exceeds the NBC? It seems like the NBC is always smaller, almost 1/2 the amount of the NSC per kWh.

I ask this because am wondering if it is financially more worthwhile (small though it may be) to charge off peak at night vs charge by solar.

For example if NBC is .04 and NSC is .07 aren't you better off exporting your solar and importing for use, vs using your solar to power home/charge car, when you are over producing in the MWh range? There seems to be some efficiency when I charge my EV with solar too as in solar is producing 5kW car uses 4kW home uses 1 kW, but when I unplug EV home is only using 0,4kW 0.6kW is being used by something when charging by Solar. When I plug the EV back in get the same 5kW from solar, car using 4kW home jumps upto 1kW.

This is assuming that one is way over producing
 
I don’t understand your math. Regardless of when you charge your car, the NSC at the end of the year will be the same. If you charge from grid power overnight, you will also have to pay NBCs. Any discrepancy in your readings regarding the consumption is probably not real. If you want to check it, look at the utility meter and see if there is a discrepancy based on that reading only.
 
I don’t understand your math. Regardless of when you charge your car, the NSC at the end of the year will be the same. If you charge from grid power overnight, you will also have to pay NBCs. Any discrepancy in your readings regarding the consumption is probably not real. If you want to check it, look at the utility meter and see if there is a discrepancy based on that reading only.


When charging on solar there is no NBC since you're not importing anything. So it costs you nothing and you gain nothing.

But if you export 1kW solar you get aprox .07 from PGE at true up.
If you charge at night 1kW it costs you .04 for NBC so net if you exported 1kW during day and charged 1kW at night you net gain .03. Is this correct?

Again, this is assuming massive overproduction.
 
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