P3D+ fastest 0-60 for cars under 60K?

[holmgang]

Both problems Tesla avoids entirely with a single reduction gear and vastly better traction control (you can argue this a bit on the P100D, but the 3 is just floor it and go every time)
....
The LR AWD Model 3 is quicker 30-50 or 50-70 (or 30-70 if you prefer) than supercars that cost $300,000 and easily beat it 0-60... because shifting is slow.

As far as I know it's quicker at either as car mags measure such things that any ICE mass production car in the world

a 20mph band is way too arbitrary and esoteric to be useful. you dont get a full run through of a cars powerband; 30-50 is still traction limited in some cars; and 50-70 is impacted by a shift in the middle.

most occasions ive ever seen 50-70 listed in mags, is locked in top-gear configuration, rather than top-performance. it is mildly useful as it represents a lazy passing scenario (i.e. non-downshift). the numbers for those as part of a top speed run exists, but theres just not a large pool of number to compare to.

BECAUSE of AWD, and the more direct traction control, is why tesla has comparative advantage in 0-60. Due to its power curve, it'd probably do less good at 20-80.....

....but even without getting into what metrics are biased for which vehicles, under the context of a getting a single measurement that represents performance in a relatable manner, 20-80 is the best i can think of.

 

[Knightshade]

I dunno why 30-70 is any "less" useful than 20-80- seems pretty arbitrary.

And by that measure even the non-P AWD Model 3 crushes literally every mass production ICE car in the world.

(and yes they test starting in top gear- but don't lock them there... this reflects real world, as most ICE cars get into top gear as quickly as possible to make their EPA #s suck less..... the GT-R for example there's 3rd party companies that specifically sell software flashes to REMOVE this "feature" because otherwise you're in top gear normally by 30 mph if you're not already flooring it from 0)

 

[BulldogsRus]

0-60 is mostly a useless metric. The P3D is a one-trick pony compared to ICE cars with similar 0-60 times. Those cars (generally speaking) will destroy it in virtually every handling metric (including how the car feels when you are pushing it).

I found him!

 

[adrianp89]

Let's not forget the fact that 99% of cars never see a track, and if they do then .7% of that 1% is a drag strip. Of that probably half is the 1/8th, where it is nearly untouchable, and the other half is a 1/4, where it takes a lot of traction to compete with. For the rest of the 99% they are raced it typically is 'illegally' stop light or some fun up to the speed limit. Never around turns. For real world you only need the power for merging. It is the arguably the best car under 99.9k for that. In real world scenarios the only time it really has a challenge is trying to pass/race a high powered ICE car at interstate speeds. With that being said, 0-60 is a perfectly acceptable metric, with 30-70 a good metric for highway merging.

 

[BulldogsRus]

P3d mundane and bland?? In my opinion, p3d is a kick ass car. I cringe when I think about those gas guzzling c8, gt500, Camaro lt1. And insurance?? Let's not get started....

A lot of car aficionados speak of Teslas as lacking that certain "feel", maybe handling in corners or vibration from torque, etc. Even many Tesla owners coming from those cars state the same, maybe because it offers a different experience than they are used to esp. being so quiet. From a sensory perspective it is quite odd compared to say an M4.

 

[holmgang]

I dunno why 30-70 is any "less" useful than 20-80- seems pretty arbitrary.

And by that measure even the non-P AWD Model 3 crushes literally every mass production ICE car in the world.

(and yes they test starting in top gear- but don't lock them there... this reflects real world, as most ICE cars get into top gear as quickly as possible to make their EPA #s suck less..... the GT-R for example there's 3rd party companies that specifically sell software flashes to REMOVE this "feature" because otherwise you're in top gear normally by 30 mph if you're not already flooring it from 0)

Why was 0-60 ever a thing? because 0-100kph is a nice even round number, and its a useful range of speed. (but just getting out of date due to how tremendously powerful cars are now)

30-130 (metric approximation of 20-80) has some symmetry. and maintains the broader speed range, compared to narrower range of 30-70, and reaches more into the higher top end appropriate for todays cars.

yes it is arbitrary in the sense theres no physical law governing these limits. but its more natural, in the same way 30-70 is more natural than 31-74.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

The F40 is 30 years old, and would trail today's Audi station wagon

There are around 50 McLaren F1 road cars around, and at $1M+ each, I highly doubt anyone is pushing them in earnest at a track.

A GT3 is an extremely credible benchmark, and would be really impressive if this supposed scenario bears out

You can't move the goalposts multiple times within the same conversation. McLaren F1 track records absolutely matter, as it's recognized as one of the supercars everyone benchmarks against. So just because there are 50 left that people aren't pushing doesn't negate the fact that someone DID push at least one of them, and put up an impressive time that a P3D was within shouting distance of.

By your logic, no other space exploration would be impressive, because no one goes there anymore.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

With that being said, 0-60 is a perfectly acceptable metric, with 30-70 a good metric for highway merging.

Or, here in New England, with our poorly-designed highways, 0-80 merging.

 

[holmgang]

You can't move the goalposts multiple times within the same conversation. McLaren F1 track records absolutely matter, as it's recognized as one of the supercars everyone benchmarks against. So just because there are 50 left that people aren't pushing doesn't negate the fact that someone DID push at least one of them, and put up an impressive time that a P3D was within shouting distance of.

By your logic, no other space exploration would be impressive, because no one goes there anymore.

No, no, and no. The guy originally said car A put times next to an "F1 at the track recently".
My point is it is unlikely someone was PUSHING at least one of them recently. The F1, if someone actually brought it to track, is not likely to have been trying to set a benchmark.


Now, it could very well be that he's talking a recent Model 3 time, compared against a F1 time set at some point in the past, when it was in someones actual interest to do that. Then that's a valid thing to compare against. But that's not what either of us are on



edit: it's the difference between "I beat Carl Lewis in the 100m recently" vs "I beat Carl Lewis' 100m record recently"

 

[adrianp89]

No, no, and no. The guy originally said car A put times next to an "F1 at the track recently".
My point is it is unlikely someone was PUSHING at least one of them recently. The F1, if someone actually brought it to track, is not likely to have been trying to set a benchmark.


Now, it could very well be that he's talking a recent Model 3 time, compared against a F1 time set at some point in the past, when it was in someones actual interest to do that. Then that's a valid thing to compare against. But that's not what either of us are on

Let me rephrase. The Model 3 came with a tenth of the F1 record. That is with street tires and non-professional driver.

 

[McMoo]

Fixed your post for you.

The C8 being the one exception, if you can actually get one at MSRP, which it's likely to be a while for.

Errr... no.


For example a Tesla Model 3 P (with owner driving) ran Laguna Seca in 1:37:53

Randy Probst (a professional driver) ran 1:44:22 in a Civic Type R FK8

Honda Civic Type R FK8 laptimes, specs, performance data - FastestLaps.com



Civic time at Streets of Willow Springs? 1:25:07

Performance Model 3? 1:21:49

In case you're not familiar neither of those tracks are straight lines.

AWD, independent motors on each axle, no turbo lag, no waiting for gears to change, regen braking, and vastly superior track mode control including being able to instantly move power around with no mechanical slowness like ICE vehicles are pretty handy things when there's corners involved too.[/QUOTE]
You clearly haven’t driven a civic type r. It’s much more engaging and fun to drive spiritedly. Lighter, manual transmission, noise, all things that make it a visceral experience. I never said it was faster around a track.

The same reasons why the civic is not as good of a daily driver and why I bought a model 3. The lap time differences are solely due to acceleration, not mid corner speed or braking distances. The civic out brakes and handles the performance model 3, you can pull the stats on those metrics somewhere and the overall feel is completely different. The model 3 is serene, the civic is maniacal.

 

[holmgang]

Let me rephrase. The Model 3 came with a tenth of the F1 record. That is with street tires and non-professional driver.

then that would be impressive indeed. stunning, actually. location? time? event?

 

[adrianp89]

then that would be impressive indeed. stunning, actually. location? time? event?

This Tesla Model 3 wants to take down McLaren F1s

 

[ModelNforNerd]

No, no, and no. The guy originally said car A put times next to an "F1 at the track recently".
My point is it is unlikely someone was PUSHING at least one of them recently. The F1, if someone actually brought it to track, is not likely to have been trying to set a benchmark.


Now, it could very well be that he's talking a recent Model 3 time, compared against a F1 time set at some point in the past, when it was in someones actual interest to do that. Then that's a valid thing to compare against. But that's not what either of us are on



edit: it's the difference between "I beat Carl Lewis in the 100m recently" vs "I beat Carl Lewis' 100m record recently"

Where did it say the F1 time was RECENT. YOU made that assumption. It said the TIME was close to an F1. As in, a data point. It didn't say the F1 was THERE, THAT DAY......

EDIT: Read the article, I'm sure everyone here made the connection that the Model 3 was challenging the clock, not racing side-by-side with an F1.


Tesla Model 3 with mods nearly takes out McLaren F1 lap time at famed Japanese race circuit

The lap time set by Unplugged Performance’s Model 3 Ascension-R also bested the times set by other notable high-performance cars at the famed time attack circuit in Japan.

• McLaren F1: 1:04.6
• Tesla Model 3 Ascension-R by Unplugged Performance: 1:04.7
• Porsche 911 GT3 997: 1:04.8
• Ferrari F40: 1:04.8
• Audi R8 V10 5.2 FSI: 1:04.9
• Lamborghini Gallardo: 1:05.0
• Porsche 911 Turbo 997: 1:05.2

 

[holmgang]

Where did it say the F1 time was RECENT. YOU made that assumption. It said the TIME was close to an F1. As in, a data point. It didn't say the F1 was THERE, THAT DAY......

Mate, it said it right here in post #38
P3D+ fastest 0-60 for cars under 60K?

We're both reading and writing in English. That sentence in its exact form can imply either scenario.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

Mate, it said it right here in post #38
P3D+ fastest 0-60 for cars under 60K?

We're both reading and writing in English. That sentence in its exact form can imply either scenario.

Pretty sure @adrianp89 was referencing the story I posted the link to.

 

[Knightshade]

You clearly haven’t driven a civic type r. It’s much more engaging and fun to drive spiritedly.

Move goalposts much?


Here's what you originally said:

The Civic Type R is an amazing, raw, vehicle that destroys the Model 3 in all performance areas except acceleration.

I proved that was wrong with objective performance measures around non-drag race tracks where things OTHER than acceleration matter a lot.


So now you've abandoned the "performance" argument you know was ridiculous and moved to "fun"

Obviously that's subjective- I don't find buzzy FWD econoboxes "fun" no matter how easily tossed around they are, but YMMV.


Likewise things with a third pedal are dying antiques at this point- inferior results compared to modern "fake" autos like DSG and DCT systems- I don't personally find more work for worse results fun... but some people find churning their own butter fun, so again YMMV.

"fun" isn't a performance measure though.

The same reasons why the civic is not as good of a daily driver and why I bought a model 3. The lap time differences are solely due to acceleration , not mid corner speed or braking distances.

<citation needed>

I mention this because the braking distance isn't any better on the civic (see below) and the mid-corner stuff is likely better on the Tesla given AWD and vastly superior ability to put power where needed and independently and instantly control it on each axle.

(I'm curious if you've actually tracked a Performance 3, with track mode enabled- but it doesn't sound like it?)

The civic out brakes and handles the performance model 3, you can pull the stats on those metrics somewhere

I did. You're wrong. Again.

Honda Civic Type R FK8 laptimes, specs, performance data - FastestLaps.com

60-0 braking in 99 feet.

Here's the Model 3 Performance-

2018 Tesla Model 3 Dual Motor Performance Quick Test Review - Motor Trend

60 to 0 mph in 99 feet

Huh. Civic doesn't outbrake it at all. Dead tie.


Handling I guess would depend on your measuring stick- quickest to handle a twisty race track appears to be the Tesla.

The civic does win on a skidpad. I don't personally spend a ton of time driving on skidpads, but YMMV.

 

[holmgang]

Pretty sure @adrianp89 was referencing the story I posted the link to.

which hadnt been posted until you did....

 

[ModelNforNerd]

Huh. Civic doesn't outbrake it at all. Dead tie.

TBH, that's really a negative for the Honda. If you can't out-brake a vehicle that weighs 1,400 lbs more than you...........

 

[ModelNforNerd]

which hadnt been posted until you did....

and now it's been posted, so the conversation should now be of a "hmm, I learned something today" tone, rather than doubling down on your position pre-link.

now you have current knowledge to be armed with in the conversation.

You're welcome for adding some context for you. It was awkward to see you piecing together scenarios where people were bringing 25 year old cars out to the track to race against a Model 3.