Well in terms of the actual performance, Tesla mentioned 90% of the full +
In terms of parts retrofit, sounds like 2/3
In terms of parts retrofit, sounds like 2/3
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P85+ in the real world
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lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
P85 here.... We need a retrofit and a factory P+ all at the same place at the same time (preferably with three owners to cycle through all) so we can document impressions of each in a comparison. Until this happens we will be dealing with speculation about a car that supposedly was going to handle like a MP4 (which I really think is someone's attempt at humor... physics will not cooperate with that one ).
If I sound somewhat jaded it is probably because I mentioned the "floaty" feeling of being disconnected from the back of my car to a Tesla employee and they responded with something like "Really??? We have never heard that before" all the time they were developing the P+ to deal with this very issue. If you doubt the the P+ was targeted at fixing a funky rear just remember that the rear got stiffer bushings and, if you believe the marketeers, that is a majority of the upgrade. The larger rear bar and larger rear tires/rims were added in the production version to improve rear response necessitating a larger front bar to maintain balance. If they were concerned at all about the front, they would have looked at spring rates.
Lastly, my "funky rear" comments are highly critical and I am holding MS to a very high standard. As is, my P85 is one of the nicest cars I have ever owned. It just kills me to know something so simple to fix is just lingering.
If I sound somewhat jaded it is probably because I mentioned the "floaty" feeling of being disconnected from the back of my car to a Tesla employee and they responded with something like "Really??? We have never heard that before" all the time they were developing the P+ to deal with this very issue. If you doubt the the P+ was targeted at fixing a funky rear just remember that the rear got stiffer bushings and, if you believe the marketeers, that is a majority of the upgrade. The larger rear bar and larger rear tires/rims were added in the production version to improve rear response necessitating a larger front bar to maintain balance. If they were concerned at all about the front, they would have looked at spring rates.
Lastly, my "funky rear" comments are highly critical and I am holding MS to a very high standard. As is, my P85 is one of the nicest cars I have ever owned. It just kills me to know something so simple to fix is just lingering.
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I blame this thread for my RN951869. Just ordered a Pearl White/Black P85+ with everything but child seats. 
Now the waiting game begins. Tesla says "We will release your order to the factory on June 6, 2013". When can I realistically expect the car in Minnesota?
Cheers and Happy Memorial Day!
Now the waiting game begins. Tesla says "We will release your order to the factory on June 6, 2013". When can I realistically expect the car in Minnesota?
Cheers and Happy Memorial Day!
if you know you want those options and won't change it you can call them and they can release it to the factory now. That will speed it up by a few weeks.I blame this thread for my RN951869. Just ordered a Pearl White/Black P85+ with everything but child seats.
Now the waiting game begins. Tesla says "We will release your order to the factory on June 6, 2013". When can I realistically expect the car in Minnesota?
Cheers and Happy Memorial Day!
i finalized mine at the end of April and they think it will be a June 19th delivery at the factory.
dennis
Model S Plaid
I spotted a black P85+ yesterday at my golf club and got jealous. :smile:
On Tuesday, I plan on visiting the Menlo Park dealership where I drove the P85+ 2 weeks ago and continue my lobbying to get access to a retrofitted P85 demo car for test drives. I'm willing to pay $13K once I am convinced the P85 upgrade fixes the concerns I have with the P85 suspension. Which are the same concerns you have.
And if you can arrange to have the P85 retrofit/P85+ comparison test in CA, I will bring my MP4 to provide a benchmark. :biggrin:
We saw the red p85+ at the tesla store in king of Prussia today. My wife liked the red so much (she didn't like sig red), that she said if wanted to trade mine in, she'd be down for it. Oh temptations...
Btw, don't know if the blend has changed since the earlier days, but the production red is awesome (especially with gray wheels)
Btw, don't know if the blend has changed since the earlier days, but the production red is awesome (especially with gray wheels)
gg_got_a_tesla
Model S: VIN 65513, Model 3: VIN 1913
Go for it, AO! If not for anything else other than the poor alignment on your current white
If you do go for it, please save the spoiler for me!
Go for it, AO! If not for anything else other than the poor alignment on your current white
If you do go for it, please save the spoiler for me!
Haha, you're not supposed to PUSH me off the cliff, jeesh! Remember though, I cracked my spoiler like 24 hours into ownership
I have a question about the "floaty" feeling. Does it only occur when you take a corner at a high rate of speed and accelerate out of it? Or maybe when you're driving fast thru somewhat sharp curvy roads?
I haven't placed an order for a Model S yet and I'm trying to figure out whether the 19s have this floaty feeling too. I'm also not planning on taking the car out to the Nürburgring
I haven't placed an order for a Model S yet and I'm trying to figure out whether the 19s have this floaty feeling too. I'm also not planning on taking the car out to the Nürburgring
The car does fine (regular P85) going on curvy roads. When you make very sharp turns or quick lane changes you'll get that floatly feeling.
If you aren't planning on getting the P85 or P85+ or you don't feel the need to accelerate like a performance car does then the 19" rims and all season tires should be fine. Are you thinking about the P85? I believe the P85+ only comes with the 21" rims and summer tires so you don't have an option there. You can get the P85 in 19" rims and all season tires which definitely wouldn't stick as well as the Contis.
CapitalistOppressor
Active Member
I blame this thread for my RN951869. Just ordered a Pearl White/Black P85+ with everything but child seats.
Now the waiting game begins. Tesla says "We will release your order to the factory on June 6, 2013". When can I realistically expect the car in Minnesota?
Cheers and Happy Memorial Day!
Welcome to TMC!
CapitalistOppressor
Active Member
I dunno about funky. The setup on the regular P85 is great if you like high speed drifts. Once it busts loose and starts drifting it is astonishingly controllable. Of course that behavior detracts from the turning performance under most circumstances. So yes, I consider it a bug, but its a pretty awesome one in many respects, lol.
Anyways, back to the bolded part of your comment, I am running down multiple threads of information that the mystery of the P85+ might help explain.
Specifically, how credible do we think the marketers at Tesla are? I've been watching SpaceX for a few years now, and started following Tesla closely last year. Elon Musk is not above pulling a fast one and stealing a march on the competition.
To start with, I've had real problems with the new claim of 4.2 second 0-60 acceleration.
Previously Tesla claimed a 4.4, and Edmunds first track tests confirmed that it did a 4.4 with no rollout. What's important to understand is that the P85+ uses the same tires as the car that Edmunds used for its first test, which also had a custom suspension intended for "yet-to-be-realized Sport package with staggered-width wheels, Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 tires and sportier suspension tuning."
And in their most recent test of their long term vehicle, equipped with the Continentals, it has the same acceleration. Comparing both tests, the primary difference between the cars is the handling. The test car from 2012 had much better results on the slalom and skid pad.
2012 Test with "Sports Package"
0-60 4.4 seconds
Slalom - 66.8mph
Skid Pad - 0.86g with TC ON. (important to realize you could not turn it off at the time)
2013 Test - Production P85
0-60 4.4 seconds
Slalom - 63.6mph
Skid Pad - 0.85g with TC ON (0.87g with TC OFF)
2012 Tesla Model S Track Test
2013 Tesla Model S Track Test
The P85+ is now claimed to do 4.2s 0-60. To get faster acceleration you need to transmit more torque to the pavement. A wider rear tire can clearly help with this, but then the implication is that the vehicle that Edmunds tested in 2012 was underpowered compared to the production P85 (or perhaps using a poorly tuned TC). If the cars theoretical straight line performance is the same with the Conti's and the PS2's then that's a problem.
But an alternative explanation is that the P85+ actually is generating more torque in the drive train. This could be done with different gearing (which would impact high end performance in a negative way, and is thus unlikely IMHO), or more power from the motor. Of course, the problem is that Tesla hasn't claimed anything about more power from the motor.
Or have they? You see, the biggest problem I've had with the stats of the P85+ is the enhanced range. Does anyone have a good hypothesis that explains how wider, stickier tires, and a suspension tune can give you an extra ~10 miles of rated range?
One possibility is a slightly longer gear ratio in the differential to optimize the car even more for highway speeds (assuming that it is not already fully optimized for those speeds as is). Unfortunately that should decrease 0-60 performance. Another is that it was optimized for higher than highway speeds and that has been toned down a bit. It could explain better 0-60 acceleration and range, but it would compromise high end acceleration, so I doubt that is the case either. (in fact, I doubt you could get improvements of both attributes in the magnitude we actually observe unless the gearing was whack to begin with, which I don't believe)
Another possibility is that the battery pack size has been surreptitiously increased.
(Fair Warning: I am a battery NOOB, so all of the following is probably wrong)
If Tesla is installing 3000mAh batteries instead of 2900mAh that would explain the increase in range. It's not clear to me that the power output would increase, or else increase enough to account for the better acceleration numbers. My basic understanding of batteries is that the power output would not go up just because of an increase in the storage capacity. But if the ~7,950 batteries in the "85kWh" pack were able to both store slightly more energy and output slightly more power then the riddle might be solved.
Of course, Tesla could also install the 3400mAh batteries. If they cut the total number in the pack by ~1,000, they would still end up with a bump in range similar to what we observe, while cutting the weight of the car by over 100lbs, which would also increase acceleration. However, cutting the number of batteries probably decreases available power output regardless (or else the load on each battery goes up drastically, which I don't think is workable).
Or maybe I am just over thinking it. Maybe PS2's are somehow low rolling resistance tires in addition to being grippy, high performance roadhuggers. Does anyone have a decent explanation for how Tesla increased both range and acceleration with a new suspension and new tires?
Is anyone able to competently discuss the changes in performance and range characteristics we could expect with upgraded batteries?
There are a number of sources that site a Tesla Model S 0-60 in 3.9 seconds. Not sure of the accuracy just what I found with a quick google search.
Tesla Model S Performance 0-60 MPH in 3.9 Seconds VBOX Launch Control - YouTube
Motor Trend tests Tesla Model S, finds 0-60 in 3.9 sec and 100.7 MPGe - Autoblog
World Exclusive! 2012 Tesla Model S Test and Range Verification - Motor Trend
Seems like 4.2 seconds is possible given this information, but I have not tried to verify.
Tesla Model S Performance 0-60 MPH in 3.9 Seconds VBOX Launch Control - YouTube
Motor Trend tests Tesla Model S, finds 0-60 in 3.9 sec and 100.7 MPGe - Autoblog
World Exclusive! 2012 Tesla Model S Test and Range Verification - Motor Trend
Seems like 4.2 seconds is possible given this information, but I have not tried to verify.
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
One small data point here..... My P85 was one built during the Conti shortage and thus was shipped with Pilots. Unlike the Conti equipped cars, my car does routinely make rated range even with 70 mph highway driving in traffic. I suspect the difference in range (4ish percent) may simply be down to superior rolling resistance of the Pilots.
On the 0-60 times, did not a lot of those sources allow for a 1 foot roll? I'm no drag racer but it is my understanding that a 1 foot roll can make for a big difference in 60 foot times.
On the 0-60 times, did not a lot of those sources allow for a 1 foot roll? I'm no drag racer but it is my understanding that a 1 foot roll can make for a big difference in 60 foot times.
CapitalistOppressor
Active Member
Tesla cites the time with no rollout. Edmunds records both types of times, no rollout and a 1ft rollout. Most consumer magazines (Motortrend, etc) use times with the rollout, which is how you get from 4.4 to 3.9. They are the same number, but measured in a different way (the consumer magazines use the one that sells the most magazines).
The consumer magazines also do atmospheric adjustments for all of their ICE calculations, but not for EV's. This is important, because the weather adjustment artificially lowers the time, so if you put a Model S and an ICE with identical 0-60 stats in a side by side run, the Model S would win but the car magazines methodology would show it as a tie. It doesn't change the fact that the Model S is actually faster (this is completely aside from the massive reaction time advantage that the Model S has, that is completely obscured in this methodology).
One additional peeve I have, is that in the case of Car and Driver, they do the normal rollout and atmospheric adjustments for ICE, but apparently do neither for the Model S, which is just absurd. So with their methodology, they give the ICE a head start and then award bonus time at the end. Just ridiculous.
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
CO,
I think I know what is going on here with the mags. They are simply trying to give the ICE boys and girls some fleeting false hope
I think I know what is going on here with the mags. They are simply trying to give the ICE boys and girls some fleeting false hope
CapitalistOppressor
Active Member
It's possible. Only way to tell would be to run a route, swap the tires and then run it again. There are plenty of anecdotal reports of Model S drivers who get rated range, and also anecdotal reports of Model S convoys where one car got less range than the others, despite being functionally identical (during the Broder runs). Even changing the firmware has been noted to change performance. So the best way to check would be a same car test.
Not that I am asking for that, lol.
My point is that an anecdotal report is not enough. That said, Elon's car had good range results in the initial road tests, and it obviously had the PS2's. It would be shocking to me, because the PS2 is a superior tire regardless, so why even bother with the Conti's, but its certainly a credible possibility.
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CO,
I think I know what is going on here with the mags. They are simply trying to give the ICE boys and girls some fleeting false hope
Honestly, in the case of Car and Driver that seems like a good bet. They have yet to reply to any e-mails I have sent to explain whether or how they deviated from their normal methodology. They refused to even publish their test results for a couple of months after their review (in fact I when I just checked a few minutes ago is the first time I have seen them).
There is some possibility that the test car massively underperformed, but the rolling acceleration numbers seem to belie that. Every indication is that they didn't use rollout, in contravention of their published policy.
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