Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits

[Walta]

Just a point - I do think this issue can be worked around by adjusting the pack's CAN message. Which is fairly doable via a plug-and-play piece of equipment.

So if Tesla won't recover the performance reduction, and an affected owner does via other means, will that void the warranty? Earlier statements I received from Tesla were that while they are protecting the drive train, as do other OEM's... unlike other OEM's Tesla will warranty any damage. So maybe the backdoor way is not a bad idea? I would want that in writing before doing the reset.

 

[smac]

Yes, 'no cost' to them....

Yep, and fundamentally this I think is wrong.

If it is a genuine engineering vs. marketing mistake by Tesla (and I think many of us agree this is a likely cause), then seeking amicable resolution would have probably incurred cost to Tesla. Unfortunately that's just business.

They made a mistake not the customer, so it is only right IMHO that they use some of the margin they received on the original sale to put things right. Pretty simple really.

Personally I think they are less worried about the operational cost.,rather the potential share price damage if the brand is tarnished by admitting an engineering failing in the cars.

 

[sandpiper]

And not only that: this is not a warranty denial on Tesla's part. It is a deliberate and permanent change (to worse) of product.

If you blow a differential on a Merc, the worst is you pay for a new one. With Tesla you buy a new car.

Not to mention normal driving has been shown to increase the counters. This is definitely not just about drag strip launches on Tesla.

As LCC has mentioned previously, this may very well be associated with a potential major battery issue; an avalanche failure of some sort. The drive units aren't costly enough, that I would imagine Tesla taking this rather significant step. Having to replace a pile of batteries is a big deal, however, and I can see Tesla doing what they've done as the best of a bunch of bad options. I wonder what decisions others would make given the same constraints?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Devil's advocate. You don't need a new car, just a new battery pack. I believe from wk057's comments that the counter is in the battery pack, not the car. So a new battery pack will fix things (albeit temporarily, unless the 100 kWh pack doesn't have this issue and you upgrade to that).

As this is not just a broken part - until Tesla comes out with a maintenance/fix regime for this issue, all we know is one needs to buy a new car. Now, it may be that a pack replacement will fix this, but since there was also talk of drivetrain wear being protected, I think it is speculative.

My point is this: With a broken part, you can just replace it. Not so simple with an artificial wear counter. Replacing certain parts may or may not help, depending on how Tesla has implemented this.

It would certainly help if Tesla came clean with what parts need to be replaced to reset the counters --- and what those counters exactly are (numbers).

 

[Andyw2100]

...unlike other OEM's Tesla will warranty any damage. So maybe the backdoor way is not a bad idea? I would want that in writing before doing the reset.

Wait, what?

You expect Tesla to put something in writing stating that it is OK for you to hack their system to bring back power that they purposely took away, and that they will still warranty everything after you are done hacking?

No offense, but I think you'd have about the same chance of that happening as of getting Mr. Musk himself to come over with a set of hand tools and swap your pack for a bigger one.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

It's actually worse ... Porsche did not disclose the counter and will refuse to repair or compensate the owner for a grenaded engine.

I'll ask again.

Did Porsche take 100 hp (or any number) artificially away from you pre-emptively before anything breaks?

Declining warranty service based on drag strip usage after something breaks is quite different from pre-emptively taking away performance before anything breaks --- from normal road use, not racing... which is what it looks like with Tesla.

 

[smac]

... I wonder what decisions others would make given the same constraints?

All options open to Tesla have downsides. (Assuming the underlying issue is warranty concerns).

Personally I would have grandfathered the rights of the existing cars and took the warranty claims on the chin for those. In parallel I would roll out disclaimers for any new cars sold, leaving the counters as they are (personally I'd prefer a more definitive set of guidelines rather than the wishy-washy stuff they have, but hey let's give them some slack).

Then I would take a view on the cost to fix whatever technical issue exists, apply that fix to any new vehicles or stick with the disclaimers.

In the meantime withdraw L on any affected cars going through CPO, but possibly offering the second owners the option to upgrade for a fee based on the new disclaimers.

 

[Walta]

Wait, what?

You expect Tesla to put something in writing stating that it is OK for you to hack their system to bring back power that they purposely took away, and that they will still warranty everything after you are done hacking?

No offense, but I think you'd have about the same chance of that happening as of getting Mr. Musk himself to come over with a set of hand tools and swap your pack for a bigger one.

Good one!
I admit that does sound silly based on the situation. However. Tesla's SA did state in a bragging way that Tesla will honor warranty issues with the drive train, relating to issues arising from hard driving, unlike other OEM's.
If hard driving does not void the warranty, if I reset the counters, and drive hard till failure? They should repair the parts? I am only putting the car back to where it was when I bought the car. Prior to version 8.0 there was no power reduction issue. How am I violating the warranty?

Hey - it's worth a shot?

 

[stopcrazypp]

Today I called Freemont as my local SC could not help me and suggested I call Freemont. Of course the number given to me rerouted back to my local SC so I tried again. I talked to vehicle support and after 10 minutes of research he responded by reciting the owners manual verbage re Launch Mode. I wanted the number of runs I had left on my counters before power was reduced. He could not help me on that. I asked if I can speak to someone higher and he declined. I expressed my displeasure with any future power cuts.

It is apparent to me that Tesla will not disclose any detailed information and I have to wait till my power is cut before I can take legal action.

wk057's comments suggest that the counter numbers can not be remotely retrieved. You would need to visit a service center to do so. Someone did that upthread, but I'm bit lazy to look it up.

 

[Tech_Guy]

With the P90DL we are being told based on @TechGuy findings, is that when the counter trigger hits, the power reduction is permanent. But as you have spoken concern about, the information coming from Tesla has been a trickle, and more data is required to really know where we are at. If it is true the power reduction is permanent, that is not like an ICE vehicle suffering performance decline. If however Tesla states that replacing the battery resets the counters, and recovers the power loss? Now I am more understanding of their effort to protect the car. Though they should have been up front about it.
So - until we get more detailed feedback from Tesla - explaining how to avoid the power loss, and how to recover it when it triggers? We will easily click off another 115 pages of concern, and speculation.

This is one of the questions I pushed back to Tesla last week.
Does a battery replacement reset everything so there are no limits or are there still other restrictions that will carry over and still be in place with a battery swap?

 

[P85DEE]

...It is apparent to me that Tesla will not disclose any detailed information and I have to wait till my power is cut before I can take legal action.

Yes, I had pointed out something similar earlier.

Just the presence of the counters might not be enough.

It could come down to whether or not they actually use them against you before you can claim any damages.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Yes, I had pointed out something similar earlier.

Just the presence of the counters might not be enough.

It could come down to whether or not they actually use them against you before you can claim any damages.

Which makes conventional legal action quite pointless at this stage, since for most people the counters are only accumulating now. The cars are not that old yet.

Now, publicity on the other hand might help sooner...

 

[Kalllagtunet]

It's actually worse ... Porsche did not disclose the counter and will refuse to repair or compensate the owner for a grenaded engine.

But every Porsche also have a big dial (the biggest…) in center view with a red marking indicating the area not rev into....

By the way they also have installed a rev limiter that limits the engine to go dangerously into the red field if the owner ignores the red marking that saves you from damaging engine. The only way to overrev severely is to accidentally shift in a manual transmission car into wrong gear.

So basically Porsche will not refuse to repair your car if you are not competent enough to drive it :-D

And for those less competent they have the PDK version that will not allow the car to shift before it is safe rev vise (in manual PDK mode you can rev to you hit the limiter but you are not allowed to downshift before the revs are safe in any mode).

I cannot see a lot of similarities between this and what tesla have done, sorry..

 

[stopcrazypp]

Good one!
I admit that does sound silly based on the situation. However. Tesla's SA did state in a bragging way that Tesla will honor warranty issues with the drive train, relating to issues arising from hard driving, unlike other OEM's.
If hard driving does not void the warranty, if I reset the counters, and drive hard till failure? They should repair the parts? I am only putting the car back to where it was when I bought the car. Prior to version 8.0 there was no power reduction issue. How am I violating the warranty?

Hey - it's worth a shot?

There are two parts of the warranty that can be interpreted to void it under that situation:
"Despite the breadth of this warranty, damage resulting from intentional actions (including intentionally abusing or destroying your vehicle or ignoring active vehicle warnings), a collision or accident (excluding from Battery fires as specified above), or the servicing or opening of the Battery or Drive Unit by non-Tesla personnel, is not covered under this Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty.
In addition, the Drive Unit is subject to the exclusions and limitations described in this New Vehicle Limited Warranty. Damage to the Battery resulting from the following activities is also not covered under this Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty:
• Physically damaging the Battery, or intentionally attempting, either by physical means, programming, or other methods, to extend (other than as specified in your owner documentation) or reduce the life of the Battery;"
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/Model_S_New_Vehicle_Limited_Warranty_201602_en_NA.pdf

 

[NSX1992]

wk057's comments suggest that the counter numbers can not be remotely retrieved. You would need to visit a service center to do so. Someone did that upthread, but I'm bit lazy to look it up.

I have visited a SC before but they would not/could not retrieve any info. The only guy who was able to read the info at the SC lived in New Jersey.

 

[hostman]

There are two parts of the warranty that can be interpreted to void it under that situation:
"Despite the breadth of this warranty, damage resulting from intentional actions (including intentionally abusing or destroying your vehicle or ignoring active vehicle warnings), a collision or accident (excluding from Battery fires as specified above), or the servicing or opening of the Battery or Drive Unit by non-Tesla personnel, is not covered under this Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty.
In addition, the Drive Unit is subject to the exclusions and limitations described in this New Vehicle Limited Warranty. Damage to the Battery resulting from the following activities is also not covered under this Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty:
• Physically damaging the Battery, or intentionally attempting, either by physical means, programming, or other methods, to extend (other than as specified in your owner documentation) or reduce the life of the Battery;"
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/Model_S_New_Vehicle_Limited_Warranty_201602_en_NA.pdf

Note that sending a new CAN message is not opening nor programming the battery.

 

[AnonNJ]

wk057's comments suggest that the counter numbers can not be remotely retrieved. You would need to visit a service center to do so. Someone did that upthread, but I'm bit lazy to look it up.

Service Manager placed my VIN into his laptop and pulled results. My car was in the parking lot being dropped off.

 

[drewsny]

Just saying but it seems that the only way we can get tesla to officially respond with anything of substance is to get an article published to some major publication. Also the article needs to not let tesla get away with bs responses like "oh all major performance cars do this don't worry"

 

[smac]

Which makes conventional legal action quite pointless at this stage, since for most people the counters are only accumulating now. The cars are not that old yet.

Now, publicity on the other hand might help sooner...

One option _you_ may have is to ask for full detailed records of everything Tesla holds on your car under the various European data protection laws, if they do indeed hold databases that include a VIN, then that VIN could be used to identify you (bearing in mind it's visible to any member of the public).

TBH I can only imagine the carnage such a request would have on Tesla's back office staff. It wouldn't surprise me at all if this aspect of corporate governance is pretty weak. (Speculation, I know, but founded on past experience of how disorganised they have been on EU back office stuff. e.g. getting basic stuff like assigning me the right registration documents )

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I'll trust that driving in valet mode won't increase the counters.