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Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits
- Thread starter Ingineer
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- Tesla Inc.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Would explain why the P100D is unaffected (or less affected). Double bonded wires in the battery.
Can easily see how some people would blow through these limits depending on driving style and commute. Could also imagine you'd rack up an impressive count on a track day
Can easily see how some people would blow through these limits depending on driving style and commute. Could also imagine you'd rack up an impressive count on a track day
Tesla doesn't acknowledge the v1,2,3 terminology and they don't really need to. That was just something we all came up with in the "other" thread for the purpose of simplification. As you may recall, as owners started reporting different power numbers we asked for screenshots of their Battery Part Numbers and those were put into a spreadsheet which included model, battery part, power and other data. It was just simpler to refer to them this way as opposed to long part numbers.The P90DL and the 10.9 quarter have already been beaten to death.
I'm not saying that they're looking to cut the power in the so called V1 cars.
But rather I tend to think they're looking to dial back the power on so called V3 cars, if and when they can. So called V3 cars, are cars that they've never acknowledged even exist.
There is no official word from Tesla as to if more than one version of P90DL exists.
It's these cars in here which we have named "V3" which are thought to have the best performance capability of all P90DLs released because of their additional 60kw of power over the earlier cars.
However they are also still early in the warranty period.
It's sounding to me like they've discovered that the additional power added to these cars and the use of that power "enough times" has probably increased the odds of failure of some type in those cars.
If there is an increase in failure risk in those cars when driven hard and for enough times, and Tesla is attempting to decrease their exposure to warranty claims, well then cutting the power in those cars to at or near the pre existing V1 or V2 levels might mitigate some of that risk.
Or at least put it at the level that it was before the few 510 kw versions of the P90DLs showed up.
Since they've never acknowledged that there are stronger and weaker variants of the P99DL, they can cut the power of a 510kw "V3" P90DL down to the 450ish kw of a "V1" P90DL, and then still insist that the owner "still" has a P90DL as it's still as "strong" as the P90DL that they sold months prior, and as they've never made made any distinction of P90DL "types" or "versions".
We are the ones who did.
In fact, if they really wanted to get creative, they could call that extra 60kw a "flaw", which could cause excessive wear and tear on drive train parts, "ruining the overall driving and ownership experience" and insist that they had three options to correct this flaw, neither of which would require the owner to bring the car in.
Since it's not a safety issue, no NHTSA and no recall needed.
Option 1: immediately cut the power in those cars.
Option 2: leave it alone and hope that it wouldn't fail and ruin the owner's "overall driving and ownership experience".
Option 3: cut the power in those cars on an "as needed" basis.
For example if it became apparent that it was going to break and "ruin the owner's overall driving experience" if it continued to be driven in the manner that it was being driven.
A "counter" would be in place to prevent this.
"...To help protect the performance and longevity of the powertrain, Performance versions of the Model S and Model X, continually monitor the condition of various components and may employ limiting controls to optimize the overall driving and ownership experience."
They also told him to "keep racing".
I'll be honest with you. The minute he came back in here, a few months ago, and said that someone at an SC had told him when he inquired about his warranty coverage and racing, to "keep racing", I knew then not to trust anything the people at these SCs say.
There's not a manufacturer out there which is not going to take steps to protect itself against warranty claims arising from racing.
I'm less likely to take the techs words as gospel after some of the things that some of us have been told
It may be correct.
And I'm not saying that they aren't leaving the door open to cut the power of any of the versions of P cars. Or any Model S or X for that matter.
I'm just saying that to my eye, it seems that this started just after or around the time that the 510kw versions of the P90DL would have had time to gone back with broken parts due to hard driving.
We first started seeing that variant about 6 months ago.
Now, 6 months later, possibly after a few of them have come back, or Tesla has now figured out that some will soon be coming back, one of them gets its power cut.
Before then, when P90DLs were pushing 450ish kilowatts, we didn't hear any rumblings about cutting anyone's power to prevent warranty claims and we certainly didn't hear anything like that when Insane was out.
The timing on this just doesn't pass the smell test for me.
As to the acknowledgement part, it is interesting to note that while all this was going on in the P90D world the same was happening in the regular 90D world. Three different Battery Part Numbers released around the same timeframe each with successively higher Rated Range numbers. Tesla's explanation to me via email at that time was that Tesla, as other car manufacturers do, can improve their product without notification as they see fit.
Now you could be right that the current issue is only impacting v3 and the rest is just CYA but we really don't have enough data, just one car so far.
Can any of you who has been power-cut at all make yourself known. Is there anyone other than Tech guy who seems to have a power cut?
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
Extraordinary proof like Tesla adding a disclaimer on their website that applies to all P versions? Something like that?
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
Actually this is a president
Not yet.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
This is extraordinarily good info. That being said, I hope your service manager doesn't catch flak for providing it to you.
Well, I'm the first to admit that it's just a theory. And worth exactly what you or anyone else in here paid for it.
But one point. And I want to preface the next things that I say by pointing out that I disagree with the practice of taking people's power in a car which they have already bought and paid for. I don't see that as the least bit ethical.
I don't think that the 10.9 thing is nearly as relevant today as it was back in say, August or September of 2015 when the P90DL was all the rage.
The car is out of production, and off the front page. Fewer eyeballs are on the 10.9 thing now.
But it it's your belief that the "had to" add that extra power so that the P90DL would reach 10.9, and that this was "necessary" in order for Tesla to make the 10.9 matter "right", well that may or may not have been the case, we'll never know.
Nobody seems to be able to "force" Tesla to "do right by them" when they think they've been done wrong.
Tesla could have easily kept on making 450ish kw P90DLs and gotten away with it, no matter how much 10.9 hollering there was or would have been. Especially that introduction of the P100DL, with more range and more power was imminent.
That's easy.
To make people who buy those CPO cars PAY to have Ludicrous "activated" on these CPO cars, and at a later date and after Tesla "decides" to "start re offering" the Ludicrous upgrade again.
A double dipping move that had to have been thought out.
They made the first guy pay for Ludicrous, and now they can make the second guy pay for it too.
Also remember CPO cars don't have 8 year warranties on them.
But a guy wanting a little more "oomph" from his CPO P90D, might decide to spring for the"Ludicrous upgrade" ....when (not if) they start offering it again......and save a few bucks over just going with a newer car.
Since the CPO car has no 8yr warranty, and if they wanted they could put disclaimer language in along with the Ludicrous upgrade if you were to buy it and have it added to your P90DL
They're proactively covering their backs on the P100DL too.
They're getting out ahead of any potential problems which might crop up in the P100DL, as opposed to doing the same thing that they've done to the previous PXXDL owners, which was springing this on them long after the purchase.
Now, if they should decided to cut someone's power, well, nobody can argue that they weren't told.
I'd agree that the rest of the input that we've gotten thus far does not support that.
Or more accurately does not support the hypothesis that the P90DL is the only car with a counter in it.
However I'd point out that while all of the Ludicrous cars may have counters in them, we don't know yet if the counters are going to be used in a consistent manner.
By that I mean, they could well decide to start cutting power in some Ludicrous cars, like the more powerful version of the P90DL, the P90DL V3, before they'd start cutting it in other cars.
It may turn out that some cars (models) might have a lower threshold of aggressive driving, or a lower number to reach on the counter, before power is cut than other cars.
That's part of my point.
The strongest piece of evidence that we cold have right now as to if this theory is completely off base, would be to have an example of a non P90DL V3 which had had it's power cut.
But so far, yes, they all seem to have these "counters" in them.
But so far, it seems that the first and the only car to have been adversely affected by the "counters", has been the P90DL V3.
And I'm wondering whether or not this is coincidence.
That's pretty much my what my theory is based in at this point.
With the counters, yes.
But we still have yet to get a full understanding on how these counters will be used.
We've heard number or launches, number of pedal mashes from a stop and from a roll, number of pedal mashes above and below 1500 amps, etc.
But here's what we don't know, among other things, so far, .
1. Do the same numbers have to be reached in all Ludicrous cars on those counters before power is cut? Or do some have a lower threshold before power is cut?
2. Does hitting one counter of a given type, count more against you and open one to having power cut more than one of the other counters?
3. With regard to #3 does hitting the threshold of one counter in one model, penalize you more than if you had hit the threshold in that same counter in another model?[/quote][/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
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Yes. I have used 10% or 15% whichever counter wins first in only 5000 miles of purely Road only driving without launch mode
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
So if I am understanding this correctly, you are currently at 445.6 towards a limit of 3068, or 14.5% of the way towards being limited on those two metrics, which I would call "just basic driving."
On the launch counter, which obviously we have somewhat more control over, as we can decide not to launch, you're at 92 towards 625, or 14.7% of the way there.
What version P90DL do you have? Also how hard would you say you drive?
As i've posted, I believe my wife and I drive in a fairly wimpy manner, so I'd love to see how our numbers compare to yours, and your assessment of your own driving style.
Also, is it safe to assume Tesla has been recording this data from the first day we took delivery of our cars? Or even earlier--from the manufacture date of the cars, so that testing is also counting against us?
Whatever additional information you can provide would certainly be helpful, @AnonNJ. Thanks!
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Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
Not sure on the 90s, but at the time of the Ludicrous upgrade announcement, I believe the numbers given were that P85Ds would move from 1300 Amps to 1500 Amps with the L upgrade. I'm not sure what we've seen in real life.
I have a V2 battery. Your calculation is overstating my mixture number. The mixture number stands on its own and the launch wide open throttle number stands on its own. The middle number for Rolling starts is used in the calculation of the mixture number. What I thought was very interesting is that the mixture number is a decimal.
Driving Style is exactly what you would expect from somebody who chose a Tesla high performance vehicle over a Porsche or Mercedes AMG. Very legal but very spirited as intended by Ludicrous.
Driving Style is exactly what you would expect from somebody who chose a Tesla high performance vehicle over a Porsche or Mercedes AMG. Very legal but very spirited as intended by Ludicrous.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
This is interesting information ... can you get a screen shot of the diagnostic screens? 
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I understand this. Did they give you the cut point for rolling mashes? (You didn't include it in your first post about this.
Again, here are the numbers I got for you, from my post upthread:
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So if I am understanding this correctly, you are currently at 445.6 towards a limit of 3068, or 14.5% of the way towards being limited on those two metrics, which I would call "just basic driving."
On the launch counter, which obviously we have somewhat more control over, as we can decide not to launch, you're at 92 towards 625, or 14.7% of the way there.
--
Those were the only two I computed because those were the two you included "cut points" for.
Thanks!
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
I overstated it because your rolling mashes had --ALREADY-- been added into it, right? That makes sense. Thanks!
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