With my previous commute, in my previous car, I would have hit the mixture limit in under 4 months of ownership. Excluding non-commute trips. So my car will become a 90D^H^H^Hpumpkin soon? All those times I helped Tesla advertise by doing ludicrous launches I'm now penalized for?
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Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits
- Thread starter Ingineer
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With my previous commute, in my previous car, I would have hit the mixture limit in under 4 months of ownership. Excluding non-commute trips. So my car will become a 90D^H^H^Hpumpkin soon? All those times I helped Tesla advertise by doing ludicrous launches I'm now penalized for?
More like reports of power loss by members of this forum.
Any reports to give any info on the magnitude of the cuts?
Is it that really no one, perhaps other than Tech guy, and even that isn't clear, has triggered any power loss?
No one with any difference noted in power tools, Tesla log, vbox or timeslips?
My car has only gotten faster as I've owned it. A software update, and then a ludicrous upgrade, and then figuring out MBP and battery temp tricks and slip start technique.
My car is getting faster. Whose car is getting slower?
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
Gifs are a poor, but common on the internet, substitute for facts and evidence and intelligent discussion.
lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
actually, I think that is a reasonably accurate response to your previous post.
I'll fire the chassis CAN logger code back up and see if I can fix where it broke on one of Tesla's updates. We need a straight from the CAN bus' mouth description of power output so all can check on a frequent basis.
I'll fire the chassis CAN logger code back up and see if I can fix where it broke on one of Tesla's updates. We need a straight from the CAN bus' mouth description of power output so all can check on a frequent basis.
Plausible failure modes include:
A) Failure of the inter-cell bonding wires due to thermo-mechanical stress caused by (cyclic) resistive heating
(A valid reason to have doubled the bond wires on the 100kw pack design)
B) Failure of the bond wires in/to the IGBTs in the inverter
While there may be others, both of these phenomena are thermal cycle dependent, and require a certain temperature to be achieved. In that sense, a cumulative counter of high current cycles (above some minimum duration) would be a rational counter measure.
All that technical speculation aside. I can't wait for the lawyers to get a hold of this one. Tesla seems to be trying to thread a needle between lemon law time expiration (often 12 or 18 months) and the onset of real warrantee expense. I predict their current solution is unworkable from a public relations perspective. Even the fawning motorhead press will cry foul on this one. No reason owners should take this BS liability pushed back to them.
Volleyball players are added to my ignore list.
Only interested in facts, logic, evidence and intelligent or otherwise interesting discussion. And minimal tolerance for FUD based speculation.
Since there are no clear reports from multiple owners with any details on any power cuts, was there any info from any Tesla rep on what exactly is supposed to happen and when? 1600 down to 1500? MBP no longer increases battery temp or triggers addl power? Any info at all on what the effect is supposed to be?
@Tech_Guy is one instance but it seems there may be other issues there.
Just trying to solicit accurate information on what exactly the consequences wld be and how it wld translate to real driving experience?
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That's just one of the things which bother me about this entire matter.
People were trying to be ambassadors for the model, and giving demo rides and such, and now they're being penalized for having done so.
Furthermore what of those who bought inventory P90DLs
If the counters cover events over the life of the car, then people were already in the hole when they bought those cars.
Tesla had better get a grip on this fast.
Score one for my guess that it was bond wire fatigue
Something triggered this action.
And it's a safe bet that it was either an instance or instances of this, or predicted instances of it within the warranty period.
It would be interesting to know when they saw it first, if they saw it, and in which cars they saw it.
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It would be interesting to see those stats for @Tech_Guy's car...
The news from AnonNJ was very informative and added to the information that I had received. Yesterday I visited another SC where I actually received my P85D and asked to see the service manager to see how many more launches were available to me. He was out to lunch but they washed my car while I waited. He cut his lunch short and was very friendly but did not try the computer to find my car and used the theory that they are protecting my car from damage as other manufacturers do. He also stated that detailed information was not available to them. I remembered that my charge door had a warning to replace it and Tesla will come to my house and replace it. That is great service, washing my car and driving to my house to fix the charge door.
Then I called the service manager where I had the Ludicrous installed. She stated she was not aware of the counters and today was her last day as she is moving to Portland's Tesla. I informed her that I was going to the drag strip tonight to see if my power has been cut and she wished me well. I said "aren't you supposed to discourage me officially?" and she replied that was her personal opinion.
Since I had to charge again prior to the drags I visited again the service technician I had spoken to the previous day. I asked if they reset the counters for a demo that they sell as they are certainly be subject to numerous launches and if not can the buyer find out how many launches are left. He did not know. Since I had posted the 2 counters and the 625 launch limit I attempted to find out where the information came from in more detail. He could not reveal or substantiate the information and thought it may be outdated and he seemed nervous. But he revealed that he had previously worked in engineering and my guess is that he knew about the counters some time ago and how did he come up with the 625 which now is confirmed by AnonNJ's SM.
The Irwindale Dragstrip was very busy last night and I only got 3 runs in. My best was 7.13 compared to my best of 7.06 in the 1/8 mile. So my power has not been cut yet. Also I test drove the day before a new P100D and used launch mode. It had 21" wheels and it was definetelly quicker than mine. There was no wheelspin or hesistation like mine has.
Then I called the service manager where I had the Ludicrous installed. She stated she was not aware of the counters and today was her last day as she is moving to Portland's Tesla. I informed her that I was going to the drag strip tonight to see if my power has been cut and she wished me well. I said "aren't you supposed to discourage me officially?" and she replied that was her personal opinion.
Since I had to charge again prior to the drags I visited again the service technician I had spoken to the previous day. I asked if they reset the counters for a demo that they sell as they are certainly be subject to numerous launches and if not can the buyer find out how many launches are left. He did not know. Since I had posted the 2 counters and the 625 launch limit I attempted to find out where the information came from in more detail. He could not reveal or substantiate the information and thought it may be outdated and he seemed nervous. But he revealed that he had previously worked in engineering and my guess is that he knew about the counters some time ago and how did he come up with the 625 which now is confirmed by AnonNJ's SM.
The Irwindale Dragstrip was very busy last night and I only got 3 runs in. My best was 7.13 compared to my best of 7.06 in the 1/8 mile. So my power has not been cut yet. Also I test drove the day before a new P100D and used launch mode. It had 21" wheels and it was definetelly quicker than mine. There was no wheelspin or hesistation like mine has.
Outright train wreck.
Wait till the rags get ahold of it. They'll do more damage to Tesla's reputation than imaginable.
As far as the lawyers, well "having" the counters in the cars, won't hurt Tesla as much as "using" the counters and information gained from them to alter the power in cars already in owner's possession.
Owners were not told of this prior to purchase.
From where I stand, for all the good their counters are going to do them in my car, they may as well not be there. I don't care what they count, my power had better be what it was before they started counting.
Because if my power is cut as a result of information gathered from them, then I definitely won't be happy about it.
No, our understanding is that the double bond wires were used in the P90DL V2 and V3. The P100D uses a completely new pack design, and we think it uses a flexible printed circuit for interconnects instead of bond wires: Patent US20140212695 - Flexible printed circuit as high voltage interconnect in battery modules
We also think it uses a completely different cooling method: Patent US20150244036 - Energy storage system with heat pipe thermal management
Both of which is why I wouldn't think the P100Ds would have the same limits.
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Yes.
And sort of ties in to my theory, except I didn't include the V2 P90DL, but only spoke of the V3 P90DL, though some of the V2s were pushing 500kw.
Tesla Model S PxxxD(L) Comparisons (Responses)
If I'm not mistaken, it was the 1071394-00-A.
The 1071941-00-C and the 1088792-00-A were the beasts.
The 1063792 seems to have been the V1 battery.
But to me, there seems to be something about the V3 (and V2) P90DLs that they are afraid of. There's something different about those cars, and I suspect that whatever it is, it has triggered this act, or has been the prime mover in triggering it.
As I said before, it wasn't until shortly we started seeing P90DLs making more power than usual that this whole mess started.
The first build date for a car with the 1071394-00-A pack is 2/11/16. That's almost a year ago. Something has happened in between that time, or earlier, and now, which has led to them taking this step.
I admit that my theory is "half baked", but I do believe that it is on the right track.
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Yes, that's been posted already.
Several days ago.
You mention that your car was at around 460kw.. Mine is a P85DL and was at 452 at 95%
It's sounding like this may have been going on as far back as late September, unless the poster's power loss back then was due to something else.
Newer P90DL makes 662 hp at the battery!!!
I have been lurking in this thread for a while (P85DL) but AnonNJ's credible and very informative post has prompted me to post.
Right up until AnonNJ's post I was staunchly anti-Tesla on this, but I've now changed my viewpoint.
A performance ICE car launched 625 times will not produce the same horsepower at launch 626 as it did at launch 1.
Same thing for a Tesla P model, just a radically different mechanism: a software enforced wearing out rather than a catastrophic hardware failure mode.
Solution to get back the horsepower is the same as for an ICE - replace the worn out components. Of course, in Tesla's case, that's a very expensive repair since it means you replace the whole car.
'Tis a brave new world we live in, but as always, better communication from Tesla would have made a world of difference.
Right up until AnonNJ's post I was staunchly anti-Tesla on this, but I've now changed my viewpoint.
A performance ICE car launched 625 times will not produce the same horsepower at launch 626 as it did at launch 1.
Same thing for a Tesla P model, just a radically different mechanism: a software enforced wearing out rather than a catastrophic hardware failure mode.
Solution to get back the horsepower is the same as for an ICE - replace the worn out components. Of course, in Tesla's case, that's a very expensive repair since it means you replace the whole car.
'Tis a brave new world we live in, but as always, better communication from Tesla would have made a world of difference.
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