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Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits

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The more I think about this, the more I wonder if it was coincidence that the first and only example we've seen thus far is what we used to call a "V3 battery equipped car.

Think back to that thread where people were first describing these cars.

They were the most powerful P90DL variants. Making somewhere around 60 KW more power, about 80 more horsepower than the first P90DL cars.

Which variant would have the greater risk of breaking something as a result of "excessive" power, all else equal?

Which variant would have the most time left on its warranty? A post from the owner of the example we have, states 200 miles on the car in July of 2016. So the car is about 6 months old and has 7.5 more years left on its power train warranty.

If one were going to institute what we're seeing in an attempt to reduce warranty exposure due to breakage of parts from aggressive driving, where and in which cars would one be more likely start?

Why is it that we don't hear anything about power being cut, until after these 510 KW versions of P90DLs show up?

Why didn't we hear anything about cutting power during Insane?

Tell me again what the real difference was found to be between Ludicrous and Insane up to 30 mph when Ludicrous first came out.

But we weren't hearing about people's power being cut nor any plans to do so back wh n P90DLs were making 452-456kw.

It's not until shortly after 510kw versions of the car show up that we hear this.

I'm going to make a prediction.

The next case of this we hear of, and maybe even the only cases we hear of, is/are going to be in one of these V3 cars.

I have a theory.

I think it's these cars which are possibly the real target.

The intent being to ultimately cut their power down to around V1-V2 levels if the owner drives in such a way as to make his car a warranty risk.

Reducing the V3 cars which might be a warranty risk power levels to V1, V2 levels?????

Well technically they would still be P90DLs and making the same power as the first P90DLs. And it might give Tesla an "out" if anyone were to complain. "your car makes the power of a P90DL" as they point to that 452 KW but not the 510 KW you say you had. (Yes I know that Tech_guy is below 452 KW . But he might have another issue.)

Tesla has never acknowledged the V1, V2 or V3 nomenclature anyway.

If they were to cut someone's P90DL which was making that beast mode 510KW, down to 452 ish KW, like the first P90DLs, no doubt in my mind they still argue that the car was making the power of a P90DL.
 
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^

None of this explains away the fact that pre-V3, P90DL didn't meet the advertised quarter mile. So tuning it downwards would not exactly be the solution either.

But most importantly the P90DL V3 angle does not explain what the Tesla employee told @NSX1992, which does suggest a significantly wider phenomenon than P90DL "V3"... Emphasis mine:

NSX1992 said:
As far as the P100D the battery is ok but drive train can still be damaged resulting in power cutbacks. Other P models can suffer battery and drive train damage.

Again, the tech's comment is both in line with Tesla's P100D disclaimer and offers additional, very specific information suggesting knowledge on the matter. Also, rest of NSX1992's message does read like an indictment on a wider Performance range than just P90DL V3 - assuming the Tesla employee (and report on it) was correct, of course.
 
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I received a response from my Tesla SA given to him by the tesla engineers.

"
Using Launch Mode, max battery power mode or to a lesser degree ludicrous settings with full accelerations places an increased stress on the entire powertrain, accelerating aging and fatigue of various components. The vehicle monitors these factors and adjusts available power accordingly to protect the systems. This is the normal operation of the vehicle as it is designed.
"

I responded by again requesting more detail as to how best I drive my car to both enjoy its amazing performance but not risk losing any power.

Ok NOLA_Mike, you have the green light.
 
^

None of this explains away the fact that pre-V3, P90DL didn't meet the advertised quarter mile. So tuning it downwards would not exactly be the solution either.

The P90DL and the 10.9 quarter have already been beaten to death.

I'm not saying that they're looking to cut the power in the so called V1 cars.

But rather I tend to think they're looking to dial back the power on so called V3 cars, if and when they can. So called V3 cars, are cars that they've never acknowledged even exist.

There is no official word from Tesla as to if more than one version of P90DL exists.

It's these cars in here which we have named "V3" which are thought to have the best performance capability of all P90DLs released because of their additional 60kw of power over the earlier cars.

However they are also still early in the warranty period.

It's sounding to me like they've discovered that the additional power added to these cars and the use of that power "enough times" has probably increased the odds of failure of some type in those cars.

If there is an increase in failure risk in those cars when driven hard and for enough times, and Tesla is attempting to decrease their exposure to warranty claims, well then cutting the power in those cars to at or near the pre existing V1 or V2 levels might mitigate some of that risk.

Or at least put it at the level that it was before the few 510 kw versions of the P90DLs showed up.

Since they've never acknowledged that there are stronger and weaker variants of the P99DL, they can cut the power of a 510kw "V3" P90DL down to the 450ish kw of a "V1" P90DL, and then still insist that the owner "still" has a P90DL as it's still as "strong" as the P90DL that they sold months prior, and as they've never made made any distinction of P90DL "types" or "versions".

We are the ones who did.

In fact, if they really wanted to get creative, they could call that extra 60kw a "flaw", which could cause excessive wear and tear on drive train parts, "ruining the overall driving and ownership experience" and insist that they had three options to correct this flaw, neither of which would require the owner to bring the car in.

Since it's not a safety issue, no NHTSA and no recall needed.

Option 1: immediately cut the power in those cars.

Option 2: leave it alone and hope that it wouldn't fail and ruin the owner's "overall driving and ownership experience".

Option 3: cut the power in those cars on an "as needed" basis.

For example if it became apparent that it was going to break and "ruin the owner's overall driving experience" if it continued to be driven in the manner that it was being driven.

A "counter" would be in place to prevent this.

"...To help protect the performance and longevity of the powertrain, Performance versions of the Model S and Model X, continually monitor the condition of various components and may employ limiting controls to optimize the overall driving and ownership experience." :D

But most importantly the P90DL V3 angle does not explain what the Tesla employee told @NSX1992, which does suggest a significantly wider phenomenon than P90DL "V3"... Emphasis mine:

They also told him to "keep racing".

I'll be honest with you. The minute he came back in here, a few months ago, and said that someone at an SC had told him when he inquired about his warranty coverage and racing, to "keep racing", I knew then not to trust anything the people at these SCs say.

There's not a manufacturer out there which is not going to take steps to protect itself against warranty claims arising from racing.

I'm less likely to take the techs words as gospel after some of the things that some of us have been told

Again, the tech's comment is both in line with Tesla's P100D disclaimer and offers additional, very specific information suggesting knowledge on the matter. Also, rest of NSX1992's message does read like an indictment on a wider Performance range than just P90DL V3 - assuming the Tesla employee (and report on it) was correct, of course.

It may be correct.

And I'm not saying that they aren't leaving the door open to cut the power of any of the versions of P cars. Or any Model S or X for that matter.

I'm just saying that to my eye, it seems that this started just after or around the time that the 510kw versions of the P90DL would have had time to gone back with broken parts due to hard driving.

We first started seeing that variant about 6 months ago.

Now, 6 months later, possibly after a few of them have come back, or Tesla has now figured out that some will soon be coming back, one of them gets its power cut.

Before then, when P90DLs were pushing 450ish kilowatts, we didn't hear any rumblings about cutting anyone's power to prevent warranty claims and we certainly didn't hear anything like that when Insane was out.

The timing on this just doesn't pass the smell test for me.
 
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The P90DL and the 10.9 quarter have already been beaten to death.

I'm not saying that they're looking to cut the power in the so called V1 cars.

You miss my point. So called V1 cars did not meet the advertised quarter mile specs. Those later power upgrases were not some unnecessary extra for Tesla to freely take away... (Tesla making this right for "V1" and "V2"? owners is a separate discussion of course.)

Now, 6 months later, possibly after a few of them have come back, or Tesla has now figured out that some will soon be coming back, one of them gets its power cut.

Yet what Tesla apparently did, already earlier, is remove Ludicrous from all P90D CPOs. No? If the problem was just "V3" and it could dialled back to no problem... why do that? Why issue the P100D disclaimer... Why did the tech offer such specific indicment on the wide Performance range, P100D drive train included?

I must say you are returning to a very early hypothesis this thread has - namely that this is limited to P90DL "V3" - but the rest of the data gathered since does not really support that anymore.

Could this investigation have started with P90DL "V3" at Tesla? Sure. But it seems the pattern they saw and reacted to went quite beyond that...
 
I'm not trolling anyone. If you're going to make an accusation such as that then back it up... How is that trolling???

Until he proves me otherwise, I'm calling BS and so should each and every one of you regardless of his past credibility. He didn't put that out there by accident, it was intentional and I'm not going to stop until he backs it up.

Think about what he's claiming for a moment, think about just how damaging that could be to the company and brand? Think of the legal liability that could put Tesla in if they are actually doing this. I'm already on the fence as to whether I'm ever going to order another Tesla for service reasons, we are putting off our Model X order because of these issues, this would be icing on the cake.

So I say again, back it up...

Jeff


I believe Tesla is in the process of backing it up for us.
I started off believing the very best of Tesla and not absolutely taking for truth what any one poster writes.
I've have enough experience with Tesla to not trust them and sufficient experience with the poster we were discussing to trust him. So, in a sense, my comments were based on fact as I understood it and now Tesla has been kind enough to open this can of worms and let us peak inside.
 
I agree with all of you above. I do.

I am also a bit concerned as we making lots of extrapolation off of little data and LOTS of speculation. I do think we should gather some hard data. Perhaps it's time for another round of mass datalogging.
But its more fun
"when in danger
"or in doubt
"run in circles
"scream and shout

i would take with large grains of salt proclamations from this thread
extraordinary claims, extraordinary proof required
 
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winfield,
You crack me up. There is just nothing else I can say.......


For everyone to consider....

How would you feel if we replaced power with range in this discussion?
Let's start by considering a 50KW reduction from a 500KW base or a 10% reduction.
You buy your car with 265 rated range. You make a few trips where you range charge then drive down to 10 miles before recharging (i.e. actually using the range you purchased). Tesla releases an over the air update that instantly reduces your rated range by 26.5 miles. There is nothing before the release comes out. There is nothing in the release notes about it. And, you were never asked if Tesla could remove the range you paid for.

How would you feel?
This is a president.

I'm channeling my inner Green here :)
 
This is a president.

Actually this is a president ;)

donald_trump_reuters.jpg
 
Service advisor just gave me credible info.

3 counters

One for Launches/WOT over 1500 amps. (I have 92 and have never used launch mode)

One for rolling mashes that are hard but under 1500 amps (mine is 134)

One for "mixture" (mine is 311.6)

They are protecting wire bonds.

625 is hard cut for Launches.

Rolling mashes counts towards mixture. Cut is 3068 for Mixture limit.

Can one of you who has been severely power-cut send me your VIN number through PM? The service manager that I'm working with would like to see your stats to understand if there is any remedy planned.
 
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