Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits

[TIppy]

I haven't seen where they represented that the same power would be available when passing as from a stop.

In fact with Launch Mode, even before the recent changes, they have said the opposite - -namely that Launch Mode "provided optimum acceleration" (p. 60 of the owner's manual). Now they just made that line in the owner's manual true.

Without evidence to the contrary I interpret any decreases or disincentives to power availability to be a reluctant but necessary trade off to purchase significant longer term reliability which will benefit consumers more than Telsa -- those like me that intend to keep the car well into the post warranty period -- but also will benefit those who intend to sell while under warranty since the price they obtain for their P model car from the buyer market will reflect the risk of significant post warranty costs for P models.

You can trade off all you want. That's your choice, not Tesla's. Leave your car in sport mode. They can reluctantly trade off all they want for future purchasers. But I followed all of the battery developments on the P90DL on its way to a 10.9 sec 1/4 mile v3, and it was the improvements to passing performance that came with the extra horsepower that interested me most. This was a big issue with the p85d horsepower people. Tesla does make claims about their passing performance by quoting their 45 to 65 mph specs which wouldn't be possible without full power.

I checked the battery part number before I took delivery and used a can bus analyzer to check the power I was getting. Now, unilaterally, they've decided they are going to reluctantly make some trade offs on a car I own.

I haven't seen were they explicitly represent that the paint won't peel off, either. The car I now have does not have the same performance it had at time of purchase, so they need to do something to restore it.

 

[bhzmark]

Tesla does make claims about their passing performance by quoting their 45 to 65 mph specs which wouldn't be possible without full power

Sources? For both the claim and your conclusion about the current state of affairs?

 

[TIppy]

Sources? For both the claim and your conclusion about the current state of affairs?

I'm more concerned about the state of affairs at the time of my purchase.

 

[bhzmark]

View attachment 224280
I'm more concerned about the state of affairs at the time of my purchase.

. . . and the source for the claim that P100Ds current 45-65 time > 1.2?

(i.e., the current state of affairs that is the origin of your suffering)

 

[TIppy]

. . . and the source for the claim that P100Ds current 45-65 time > 1.2?

(i.e., the current state of affairs that is the origin of your suffering)

You said they don't make any claims about passing performance. Clearly, they think it is an important spec. My current car used to do 45 to 65 in 1.24 secs now it takes 1.33 secs. Who cares what they are saying? I measured the performance of my own car.

 

[sorka]

Start with this point: all the cars, from 40 to P100D have software limits that provide for less than the maximum amount of power that is physically possible from the drivetrain. If the goal was damn-the-consequences-go-as-fast as-possible, more power could be available with the likely consequence that some link in the drivetrain would break in short order.

This is not really correct. The P85D or DL has power limits only for traction or if the battery is too hot or too cold. The P85DL is traction limited up to about 35 to 40 mph. Before this, power is limited due to traction. After that, the P8DL hits 1500 amps and stays at 1500 amps for as long as you keep the pedal all the way to the floor until the battery gets too warm. If the battery becomes too warm or is too cold, it will limit power. Note, the maximum amount of power when cold will be less when the battery is cold because the voltage drop is higher even though the current is still maxed out. Now if the battery gets really cold, it will also limit current as well as charging speed but you don't see those sorts of limits unless the car was stored in freezing temperatures.

 

[bhzmark]

You said they don't make any claims about passing performance. Clearly, they think it is an important spec. My current car used to do 45 to 65 in 1.24 secs now it takes 1.33 secs.

What I said was that I haven't seen where they represented passing power would be the same as power from a stop.
I still haven't seen that.

But more interestingly and relevantly, you have helpfully clarified your claim that the advertised (and still current) spec for P100Ds was reproduced by you (when? shots of vbox?), but now you claim that your cars performance cannot meet the spec (in how many attempts? under what conditions? shots of vbox?) Can you share more details on the conditions under which you attempted that?

Interesting claim that their website is currently wrong on 45-65 spec for P100Ds

Alternatively, if you dont' own a P100D, then you are missing my point. What advertised spec did you rely on when you bought the car, which your car is not now meeting?


edit to add: Interesting: I see someone from the Trump campaign is now contributing to the forum in the form of disagreeing with requests for sources and evidence for claims made.

 

[bhzmark]

This is not really correct. The P85D or DL has power limits only for traction or if the battery is too hot or too cold. The P85DL is traction limited up to about 35 to 40 mph. Before this, power is limited due to traction. After that, the P8DL hits 1500 amps and stays at 1500 amps for as long as you keep the pedal all the way to the floor until the battery gets too warm. If the battery becomes too warm or is too cold, it will limit power. Note, the maximum amount of power when cold will be less when the battery is cold because the voltage drop is higher even though the current is still maxed out. Now if the battery gets really cold, it will also limit current as well as charging speed but you don't see those sorts of limits unless the car was stored in freezing temperatures.

The P85Ds and DLs have power limits in the sense that the power that is physically available (and they probably turned on to test the drivetrain under test conditions) was never fully made available to buyers -- until parts of that power (but not all) was made available over time with software updates, and with Ludi hardware updates that likely only reinforced/replaced hardware that didn't have sufficient robustness. There were reports of Telsa's P85D test mules making 2.8 0-60's -- but this was never, even after ludi, made available to consumers. probably dialed down to strike a better balance with longevity. Rumor: P85D firmware update to increase 0-60 performance to 2.8s Did Elon just hint about unleashing the P85D's power? | Tesla

 

[TIppy]

What I said was that I haven't seen where they represented passing power would be the same as power from a stop.
I still haven't seen that.

I gave you the source for the 1.2 sec 45 to 65 mph passing speed. They could not have attained that time unless they used the same max power for passing as they did for a standing start. So by implication, yes, they did make such a representation.

There are an infinite number of things they didn't explicitly state. They didn't explicitly say the paint wouldn't peel off the car. It all comes down to if it's reasonable for a car company to reduce the performance of your car after purchase and whether a jury thinks so. Or if your customers think so. One guarantee I can be sure of is that if they don't restore my car to its original performance, this will be my last Tesla.

 

[TIppy]

probably dialed down to strike a better balance with longevity

Rumors and rank speculation. You have no idea what their internal deliberations were. There is a maximum amount of power that you can draw from the battery. It's when the impedance of the load is equal to the internal resistance of the battery. If you want more power from the motor you need a battery with lower internal resistance. So with the P85DL, it was probably the battery's internal resistance and the resistance of the electrical connections that was the limit, since the drivetrain is the same as the P90DL v3. Musk also said that the drivetrain of the P100D was the same.

 

[jerjozwik]

You're wrong. P100Ds are still getting 550KW without launch mode and P85DLs and P90DL V1s are still getting mid 450s without launch mode. Any evidence to the contrary?

yes. been logging for a week now. max power has been 431kW with 15 min left of max battery heating. 1500amps, 290-280volts.

 

[Mach Schnell!]

Did a quick roll-on acceleration (30-75 mph or so) power check this morning after installing latest software update yesterday 17.14.23 using TM-spy: 537.8 kW, 1781.9 A @ 82% SOC, standard Ludicrous mode only, no Ludo+, no max battery power, no launch mode. Seems about same for that SOC as previous software version 17.11.3. Unfortunately I wasn't running the VBOX today.

 

[sorka]

The P85Ds and DLs have power limits in the sense that the power that is physically available (and they probably turned on to test the drivetrain under test conditions) was never fully made available to buyers -- until parts of that power (but not all) was made available over time with software updates, and with Ludi hardware updates that likely only reinforced/replaced hardware that didn't have sufficient robustness. There were reports of Telsa's P85D test mules making 2.8 0-60's -- but this was never, even after ludi, made available to consumers. probably dialed down to strike a better balance with longevity. Rumor: P85D firmware update to increase 0-60 performance to 2.8s Did Elon just hint about unleashing the P85D's power? | Tesla

Those 2.8 times back in Jan 15 were test mules running the 1500 amp battery. The P85DL and P90DL V1 gives 1500 amps all the time except when it's traction limited.

Prior to the L upgrade when the the 0-60 time was 3.2, a small tweak that provided more starting power allowed a decrease to 3.1 seconds but this was just a small tweak around the traction limits. The result after that upgrade is that my traction control would kick in about 1 in 5 launches when prior to that it never kicked it.

 

[sorka]

yes. been logging for a week now. max power has been 431kW with 15 min left of max battery heating. 1500amps, 290-280volts.

If you're making 1500 amps, then it's not limiting power. At that point you're limited by whatever your voltage drop is.

I don't make 456KW until my "max battery" is ready which it is after a supercharging session or when I've enabled the battery heater long enough heat the battery up to ready.....or if I've simply driven long enough on a warm day which also heats the battery up to ready (i.e. if I drive for a while on a warm day and select max battery, it's always either ready or says ready in 5 minutes).

431KW with 15 minutes estimated to max battery is within line of a P90DL V1. If you've got a V2/V3, then you're now experiencing the power limits unless you use launch mode which sucks of course.

 

[jerjozwik]

431KW with 15 minutes estimated to max battery is within line of a P90DL V1. If you've got a V2/V3, then you're now experiencing the power limits unless you use launch mode which sucks of course.

back when i was logging with the v2 battery crew i got 480kW with 15 min on max bat. only once in the year+ ive had my car have i ever gotten max batt to say ready, and by then i was at 70% SoC. so... untill its back to 80* in the morning, im done data logging my nurfmobile.

 

[Jeffgtx]

His sig says p100dl

 

[TIppy]

back when i was logging with the v2 battery crew i got 480kW with 15 min on max bat. only once in the year+ ive had my car have i ever gotten max batt to say ready, and by then i was at 70% SoC. so... untill its back to 80* in the morning, im done data logging my nurfmobile.

Why is it that your SOC is so low at max battery ready? I usually enable max battery while I'm still plugged in and at about 90 to 95 percent SOC. That way I can have max battery ready and 100 % SOC.
Do you have to drive a long distance to a test location? You only have to accelerate to about 45 mph to reach max power.

 

[AnonNJ]

View attachment 224280
I'm more concerned about the state of affairs at the time of my purchase.

Does anyone have this screen grab from when P90DL reigned supreme? It would be very useful to the escalations on this matter happening with multiple parties.

 

[azdryheat]

I totally agree.

That being said - everyone who spent the $10K for ludicrous mode 10.9 performance got ripped off. Tesla failed to deliver that car, and should refund everyone the $10K. Along with that, Tesla needs to reduce the power to a level that you can drive the car anyway you want and not induce battery damage.
Just sayin....

I am trying to get this on my car. Can anyone estimate what the current P90DLv3 power output is without Launch Control? Also what power level would I have if my car were downgraded to a Non-Ludicrous P90Dv3? Thanks.

 

[Walta]

I am trying to get this on my car. Can anyone estimate what the current P90DLv3 power output is without Launch Control? Also what power level would I have if my car were downgraded to a Non-Ludicrous P90Dv3? Thanks.

P90DL V3 - when not using launch mode -

Before counterGate fix

With 100 SOC and Max Battery Ready – 508kw max power

Post counterGate fix

With 100 SOC and Max Battery Ready – 488kw max power

I have no data on Non-ludicrous mode power levels.