Perf gets higher top speed, RWD more range, but no love for AWD???

[SoCalGuy]

I’d like a free sw update to make my NonP AWD 0.5s faster so it would be 0-60 in 4.0s pls. Thanks.

And make it only available to people who purchased before the price drops. Elon, you can call with this the Long Range AWD Plus to distinguish it from the new AWD regular.

 

[Atari2600]

I drive about 15,000 miles on i71 in Ohio and the speed limit is 70 and keeping up with traffic is often much faster than that.

I’d like a free sw update to make my NonP AWD 0.5s faster so it would be 0-60 in 4.0s pls. Thanks.

And make it only available to people who purchased before the price drops. Elon, you can call with this the Long Range AWD Plus to distinguish it from the new AWD regular.

NO, it must be 3.99 seconds. It has to be under 4. I'd pay $2,500.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Note: one way you're messing this up is by talking about average acceleration

Now that the math has been worked out and we’ve sorted out your unit problems and corrected your 10% error in wheel radius, and accounted for the final drive ratio, we can go back to the empirical data.
The derivative (slope) of v(t) is a(t). Look at my plot from the P3D above and draw conclusions about the acceleration... if anything, if you look closely and trust the low speed data (very questionable to do this), you can see it supports people’s butt dyno feel that the P3D is slow off the line (looks like it has low jerk, looking at the first couple inches of travel).

It all lines up with the calculations...shocking, I know.

 

[12yan]

Now that the math has been worked out and we’ve sorted out your unit problems and corrected your 10% error in wheel radius, and accounted for the final drive ratio, we can go back to the empirical data.
The derivative (slope) of v(t) is a(t). Look at my plot from the P3D above and draw conclusions about the acceleration...

It all lines up with the calculations...shocking, I know.

There is no unit problem. Maybe you just don’t know metric?

Rounding by ten percent has no relevent effect. If you take into account the gear ratio, the required grip increases from 1.5g to 13.5g at a stop. Ten percent doesn’t square that circle for you.

It’s absurd that you guys apparently think the M3 P with 640 Nm of torque couldn’t spin the wheels from a stop.

As for your plot, there is no information as to the initial acceleration. Your line doesn’t even pass through the origin. Also the data is a joke if terms of resolution for what we are discussing. Zoom in around 0-1 mph and what do you see?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

There is no unit problem. Maybe you just don’t know metric?

Rounding by ten percent has no relevent effect. If you take into account the gear ratio, the required grip increases from 1.5g to 13.5g at a stop. Ten percent doesn’t square that circle for you.

It’s absurd that you guys apparently think the M3 P with 640 Nm of torque couldn’t spin the wheels from a stop.

As for your plot, there is no information as to the initial acceleration. Your line doesn’t even pass through the origin. Also the data is a joke if terms of resolution for what we are discussing. Zoom in around 0-1 mph and what do you see?

Umm....I think you are trolling us!

533N/(1840kg/4) = 1.16g

Unit error: 1N/1kg. = 1m/s^2. (Not 1g). Because F=m*a
So correcting your calc for drive ratio:
So, 533N * 9/(1840kg/4) = 10.42m/s^2 (not 10.42g)

Use online calculators; if you enter units they take care of everything for you, it’s not like the old days thankfully.

However the radius is 0.33m not 0.3m. So correct to: 9.48m/s^2. This is 0.96g. With respect, 10% difference in radius does matter if you want the answer to be correct, and we aren’t THAT far from the grip limit of the MXM4s.

You did not account for driver weight which knocks off another 3-4%. That aligns it with the Wolfram Alpha number.

None of this accounts for several % drivetrain losses. Looks like 5% at least based on 0-60 times. When dealing with constant torque up to 45mph none of these calculations/predictions are very complicated.

 

[SoCalGuy]

I’d like a free sw update to make my NonP AWD 0.5s faster so it would be 0-60 in 4.0s pls. Thanks.

And make it only available to people who purchased before the price drops. Elon, you can call with this the Long Range AWD Plus to distinguish it from the new AWD regular.

I’d pay $0. Doesn’t cost Elon anything to unlock more power.. esp after they have probably 2 million miles of Model 3 power train data...

 

[Perry]

I would agree this is probably the case but the fact that the AWD non-P hasn't shown any change on the listing is a disingenuous marketing move to me if they're trying to put a bigger wedge between the P and non-P. They should be consistent across the board in their testing and results.

So you want them to lie to you too -- not just the P. Fine your car just improved too by .2 of a second with rollout.

 

[Perry]

This is not correct. I think we can agree that the torque produced by either version of the car is enough to spin out the wheels of either tire, so it is the tire that fundamentally determines the amount of torque that can be applied at low speeds.

No we can't agree. I can not get my P3D- to spin tires at full torque in a straight line even on my MXM4 all season tires. The car is not traction limited. This has been shown many times. Look at this video. The guy got way lighter wheels and grippy tires and was expecting a significant 0-60 drop but in the end he got nothing more than an insignificant difference within the margin of error of the device. The car is limited by software and yes if the software would allow it, it would spin its wheels.

 

[Perry]

You guys are worried about top speed? Who is actually ever going to go more than 20 over the legal speed limit? I don’t understand why people are not all lobbying to get Tesla to introduce a "Launch Mode" in the P3. It feels leisurely off the line compared to a performance S. It wouldn’t surprise me if that will eventually be coming down the road, hopefully in an update, not hardware.

Personally I don't care about a launch mode that you have to prep the car and be in a special condition (stopped) to engage it. How is that useful in day to day driving. I wan't all the power I can get all the time. If it can't do that then forget about these special modes. Track Mode however is different because you turn it one once when you get in the car and its there all the time for the entire drive.

 

[Perry]

But it sure in hell stops much shorter when braking. I know that's not what is being discussed but I do not want people to overlook that and that's why I have PS4S on my 18" OEM wheels.

Yes of course and cornering too. That's why you get better tires, not to prevent straight line acceleration slip.

 

[Daniel in SD]

There is no unit problem. Maybe you just don’t know metric?

Rounding by ten percent has no relevent effect. If you take into account the gear ratio, the required grip increases from 1.5g to 13.5g at a stop. Ten percent doesn’t square that circle for you.

It’s absurd that you guys apparently think the M3 P with 640 Nm of torque couldn’t spin the wheels from a stop.

As for your plot, there is no information as to the initial acceleration. Your line doesn’t even pass through the origin. Also the data is a joke if terms of resolution for what we are discussing. Zoom in around 0-1 mph and what do you see?

Yes, the P3D can accelerate at 13.5g but Tesla restricts it because that could be fatal!
A car with a lower drive ratio (i.e. any vehicle with a multi speed transmission) could easily spin the wheels with 640Nm of torque. Teslas only have a 1 speed transmission. If you want to spin the wheels you could put in a lower gear ratio or install Ecopia tires (haha).

None of this accounts for several % drivetrain losses. Looks like 5% at least based on 0-60 times. When dealing with constant torque up to 45mph none of these calculations/predictions are very complicated.

Also, the drivetrain inertia reduces the acceleration as well which probably accounts for some of the discrepancy.

 

[diamond.g]

Personally I don't care about a launch mode that you have to prep the car and be in a special condition (stopped) to engage it. How is that useful in day to day driving. I wan't all the power I can get all the time. If it can't do that then forget about these special modes. Track Mode however is different because you turn it one once when you get in the car and its there all the time for the entire drive.

Max Battery could be useful. Up the amps that can be drawn out.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Yes, the P3D can accelerate at 13.5g but Tesla restricts it because that could be fatal!

It would be fun while it lasted though. They should uncork it. Tesla needs to provide more unlocks to access the latent torque, amirite?

 

[Sunshine State]

Personally I don't care about a launch mode that you have to prep the car and be in a special condition (stopped) to engage it. How is that useful in day to day driving. I wan't all the power I can get all the time. If it can't do that then forget about these special modes. Track Mode however is different because you turn it one once when you get in the car and its there all the time for the entire drive.

Launch requires absolutely no prep other than stopping the car, apply the brakes, tap the throttle once and then floor it, light turns green, release the brake and nothing can stay next to you at least in an S. The P3 launches so leisurely now compared to the performance S and X it’s day and night, the rocket acceleration is most of the fun That might be the plan though to separate the cars with the big difference in acceleration.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

if you look closely and trust the low speed data (very questionable to do this)

As for your plot, there is no information as to the initial acceleration. Your line doesn’t even pass through the origin. Also the data is a joke if terms of resolution for what we are discussing. Zoom in around 0-1 mph and what do you see?

Sigh. As I said, it is questionable to trust the first few points (first 0.1 seconds or so).

The VBOX does 20Hz sampling. I think their plot algorithm excludes the first point at 0 mph which is why it looks this way, not going through zero. It may introduce 0.05sec error on the times depending on how they calculate the 0-60 times excluding rollout.

But since you asked.

I think this plot gives credence to the claims of some people that the P3D lacks the “kick” off the line. I’d like to see a similar plot from the VBOX on a P100DL or even just a regular P100 just to see if there is any evidence of a more rapid ramp. It’s hard to say whether these first few points are accurate, or whether the initial slow ramp is just measurement error.

I can assure you the tires did not slip.

 

[Perry]

Launch requires absolutely no prep other than stopping the car, apply the brakes, tap the throttle once and then floor it, light turns green, release the brake and nothing can stay next to you at least in an S. The P3 launches so leisurely now compared to the performance S and X it’s day and night, the rocket acceleration is most of the fun That might be the plan though to separate the cars with the big difference in acceleration.

"absolutely no prep" does not equal to "stopping the car", "apply the brakes". I call that prep.

If launch mode does not engage automatically at every corner exit on a track, without having to come to a complete stop, it is useless.

 

[rkalbiarEV]

Damn it Elon/Tesla! Why are you doing this to us! We supported you!!!

 

[Knightshade]

But it sure in hell stops much shorter when braking. I know that's not what is being discussed but I do not want people to overlook that and that's why I have PS4S on my 18" OEM wheels.

Yup- which is further empirical proof the P3D is not traction limited on acceleration.

If it were then changing the tires in a way that reduces stopping distance would also make the car quicker to accelerate.

It doesn't though. Folks on MXM4s get to 60 exactly as folks on the PS4S tires. Because more traction doesn't help the car. Because it's not traction limited.

 

[Atari2600]

Yup- which is further empirical proof the P3D is not traction limited on acceleration.

If it were then changing the tires in a way that reduces stopping distance would also make the car quicker to accelerate.

It doesn't though. Folks on MXM4s get to 60 exactly as folks on the PS4S tires. Because more traction doesn't help the car. Because it's not traction limited.

Technically it is traction limited, just not traction limited on acceleration.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Technically it is traction limited, just not traction limited on acceleration.

Agreed. I tried to put all the appropriate qualifiers in my earlier post, but I did miss that one. And as @Knightshade says, that braking performance difference between tires is just one more way to see the car is not traction limited 0-60 even with MXM4s. (This might be the only way to convince people who believe the traction control is so seamless that you don’t notice it operating, especially on the launch when there “surely” must be more torque. Or maybe it won’t convince them.)

Anyway, once the 0-45mph times/distance approach the 45-0 braking times/distance (assuming optimal ABS performance), then we can revisit this. It’s possibly not 100% symmetrical due to weight transfer differences in the acceleration vs. deceleration events, but it is probably close. We can’t look at 0-60 and 60-0 times to compare, since acceleration drops after about 45mph when the HP limit is reached - so the metrics are definitely not symmetric to 60mph.

Very curious to know what Mr. 13.5g @12yan thinks of all of this.