Performance Over LR + Boost in Cold Winters?

[likkuid]

Currently have a LR on order. Given monthly interest rate hikes (full-point hike expected mid-July here in Canada), the cost of the acceleration boost, and not having to go Blue for a quicker delivery, the P may end up costing the same as the LR+Boost as it delivers much sooner.

I am buying winter tires regardless. However, my concern is the pothole magnet tires on the P, the reduced range, and a less smooth ride. Acceleration wise, I love it.

I’m considering making a separate order for a P as a hedge against interest rates and cancelling the one I don’t go with.

Would love anyone’s thoughts, particularly on the P in cold weather. Here in Toronto it’s effectively Winter half the year…Thanks.

 

[NowIsGood]

If the net cost is about the same, definitely get the P and sell the wheels/tire set that comes with it and pick up some aftermarket 18s. You can likely break even or better on that, and depending on the tires you choose you'll have no reduced range or less-smooth ride (I don't think the minor suspension difference makes much difference).

 

[tm1v2]

I agree with @NowIsGood, the suspension difference between P and LR AWD is extremely minor (at least for 2021+), they basically feel the same except for the different tires and wheels.

Same with efficiency/range. It's basically the same except for the tires and wheels.

Put on the wheels and tires you want, and there's no downside to the P besides the price.

Note not all 18" wheel shapes clear the M3P (PUP) brakes. The Tesla 18" aero base wheels don't apparently. But there are a good number of aftermarket 18s that do. There's even an aftermarket 18" aero wheel that fits, should you want that (with removable aero caps like the stock aero wheels).

Also read up on the M3P "stepped lip" hub. A wheel that's actually designed for the M3P will have the center bore machined to match the stepped lip, so you can mount it directly without needing any spacers or centering rings. Whether that's important is up to you, just know that there are options. Many wheel sellers and brands will sell you Mustang wheels + centering rings, which should be fine, but if you're like me you'd rather have a direct fitment.

 

[likkuid]

If the net cost is about the same, definitely get the P and sell the wheels/tire set that comes with it and pick up some aftermarket 18s. You can likely break even or better on that, and depending on the tires you choose you'll have no reduced range or less-smooth ride (I don't think the minor suspension difference makes much difference).

I heard from some the lowered suspension makes clearance difficult on some roads. This would be my family’s one and only car. Is that an actual issue?

Also, while I like the idea of selling the tires and switching to 18s, my concern with this is resale value as I would no longer have the stock parts.

Was not aware ride and range would be the same…that is interesting. Thanks.

 

[Evpowerdan]

Depends on the price you locked in with your order. Interest rates are climbing to try to curb the crazy inflation.

In the USA, the price of the M3P did not increase in the last round, but the M3LR did go up $2K. In the USA the delta was post the price hike $7k to go from the Long Range AWD to the P, prior to the last price increase. The P's 20" wheels tend to sell for $2kish with the tires on them, so you will be hard pressed to find quality rims 18" or 19" with tires and TPMS for that price. More likely in the $3.5k-$4k range - so its either a wash or another $2k more (as the 20" rims have very few choices for winter tires - if you opt to keep them). Then the performance upgrade of $2k to the M3LR to get close to the M3P brutal acceleration from 0-30. Rear lip spoiler and pedals = $400.

So doing the math - if you have a LR on order, add the $2k performance upgrade, add a spoiler and pedals - you still save $5k. Whether that $5k is a savings or upgrading the the M3P is worth it & getting the M3 quicker - that solely your call.

The P's adv is: 1) quicker 2) Pedals and rear spoiler 3) Bigger brakes and red calipers 4) They say stiffer suspension and slightly lower, but hard to tell just looking at them without the same 20" tires on the non P's. 4) 20"x9" rims (LR comes with 18"x8.5" aero rims or 19"x8.5" for the sport rims).

The LR AWD adv: 1) Still extremely fast 2) More wheel options, as the brakes are slightly smaller 3) Cost a lot less 4) Suspension feels very similar, maybe a little softer for rough roads (but that's more of a tire/wheel combo). 5) Stock 18" aero wheels without the covers on look very good. Optional 19" sport wheels look sweet on most colors - plus tires are way less expensive than 20" low profile tires.

***The wheels price difference may be mute, as you could always keep the 20" wheels for summer usage, and by 18"/19" wheels to add winter tires. Though, if you had the LR with the 18" or 19" wheels, you could just swap the tires out and not buy new rims. MICHELIN® CrossClimate®2 are great all season tires rater for snow - so that could be a year round option on the LR.

In terms of resale value in the future, depends on so many external factors. However, most buyers are looking for "stock configuration vehicles", so in term of changing the wheels - most people would not even know. If you add coil overs and other stuff - that's where the diminishing returns comes into play. Note - Tesla's hold their value very well right now - don't see that changing anytime in the near future.

Lots to ponder.

 

[likkuid]

Depends on the price you locked in with your order. Interest rates are climbing to try to curb the crazy inflation.

In the USA, the price of the M3P did not increase in the last round, but the M3LR did go up $2K. In the USA the delta was post the price hike $7k to go from the Long Range AWD to the P, prior to the last price increase. The P's 20" wheels tend to sell for $2kish with the tires on them, so you will be hard pressed to find quality rims 18" or 19" with tires and TPMS for that price. More likely in the $3.5k-$4k range - so its either a wash or another $2k more (as the 20" rims have very few choices for winter tires - if you opt to keep them). Then the performance upgrade of $2k to the M3LR to get close to the M3P brutal acceleration from 0-30. Rear lip spoiler and pedals = $400.

So doing the math - if you have a LR on order, add the $2k performance upgrade, add a spoiler and pedals - you still save $5k. Whether that $5k is a savings or upgrading the the M3P is worth it & getting the M3 quicker - that solely your call.

The P's adv is: 1) quicker 2) Pedals and rear spoiler 3) Bigger brakes and red calipers 4) They say stiffer suspension and slightly lower, but hard to tell just looking at them without the same 20" tires on the non P's. 4) 20"x9" rims (LR comes with 18"x8.5" aero rims or 19"x8.5" for the sport rims).

The LR AWD adv: 1) Still extremely fast 2) More wheel options, as the brakes are slightly smaller 3) Cost a lot less 4) Suspension feels very similar, maybe a little softer for rough roads (but that's more of a tire/wheel combo). 5) Stock 18" aero wheels without the covers on look very good. Optional 19" sport wheels look sweet on most colors - plus tires are way less expensive than 20" low profile tires.

In terms of resale value in the future, depends on so many external factors. However, most buyers are looking for "stock configuration vehicles", so in term of changing the wheels - most people would not even know. If you add coil overs and other stuff - that's where the diminishing returns comes into play. Note - Tesla's hold their value very well right now - don't see that changing anytime in the near future.

Lots to ponder.

Very insightful and I appreciate you writing that.

I got the LR prior to the last 2K CDN price hike at 75K CDN (now 77; P has remained at 84).

The proximity in price really comes down to interest rates (yes, because the dollar is becoming worthless). If there’s a 2% hike by delivery time the price nearly becomes the same ($2k per 1%). 1% is expected mid-July. Timing timing timing!

 

[mswlogo]

I did the same thing in 2018 worried I was not gonna get LR in time for expiring tax break. They offered the Stealth P (same exact range) and free super charging. That was a good deal.

I would never ever want to run low profile wheels. I see post after post of damaged wheels and folks trying to dump them.

You also take a hit on ride and a hit on range.

But that can all be fixed. For a cost.

You will be limited on wheels that fit.

Also keep in mind with one pedal driving the brakes get used so little they are prone to rusting up more. You need to work them enough to keep them in shape. With even larger brakes they need to be worked that much more.

As much as I love the looks, I’d never want the bigger brakes unless I go to the track regularly.

Other than all that I think it’s a good idea

If you sell your wheels on day one you’ll probably break even with a nice set of 18” or 19”.

 

[Evpowerdan]

I did the same thing in 2018 worried I was not gonna get LR in time for expiring tax break. They offered the Stealth P (same exact range) and free super charging. That was a good deal.

I would never ever want to run low profile wheels. I see post after post of damaged wheels and folks trying to dump them.

You also take a hit on ride and a hit on range.

Truth - but the 20" wheels look so good and fill up the wheel arches, till you hit a good size pot hole and blow out a tire and/or bend a rim (been there on my previous car). Definitely big rims and low profile tires are for smooth road states. 18' wheels with 245 width are great and so are 19" wheels with 245 width. 235 are great, and the OEM tires sit more "flat" than "roundish", so a 245 non-OEM tire may have the same or less of a contact pad.

Also keep in mind with one pedal driving the brakes get used so little they are prone to rusting up more. You need to work them enough to keep them in shape. With even larger brakes they need to be worked that much more.

As much as I love the looks, I’d never want the bigger brakes unless I go to the track regularly.

I think a lot of people miss this one, most of your driving will be "one pedal", so the brakes only come into play on drastic stops or panic stops. Otherwise the brakes don't get much use, unless you hit the track or an autocross event. So you need to use the brakes every now and then - to keep the rotors clean and ready for that panic situation.

 

[mswlogo]

Truth - but the 20" wheels look so good and fill up the wheel arches, till you hit a good size pot hole and blow out a tire and/or bend a rim (been there on my previous car). Definitely big rims and low profile tires are for smooth road states. 18' wheels with 245 width are great and so are 19" wheels with 245 width. 235 are great, and the OEM tires sit more "flat" than "roundish", so a 245 non-OEM tire may have the same or less of a contact pad.

I think a lot of people miss this one, most of your driving will be "one pedal", so the brakes only come into play on drastic stops or panic stops. Otherwise the brakes don't get much use, unless you hit the track or an autocross event. So you need to use the brakes every now and then - to keep the rotors clean and ready for that panic situation.

I think the 19" (at least the 2018 ones) look 90% as good as 20" and have a good selection of efficient tires. The new 19" are not nearly as nice looking unfortunately. They remind me of the 20" wheels that came with my 2019 X. See below.

Here is my Performance Stealth on 19" with Pirelli P7+ tires. I got the same wh/mi with this setup as I did with the 18" with covers on.

These are the same no so pretty 20" wheels Tesla has moved to. Why, I don't know. But I bought a PPF kit for them to look like the upgraded wheels. I think they looked pretty good and they held up for two years just fine.

 

[likkuid]

Thanks all. Looking at these Winter photos, do you think this poses a problem for the lower suspension? Or is it really that minuscule a difference? On the website the image doesn't even change between P and LR for suspension.

I saw the EV01 18" replacements (super cheap) for the P as well as Titan7 and Martian Wheels. Hopefully these bring range and ride comfort up to the LR standard.

 

[tm1v2]

@likkuid To match the full, complete efficiency of an LR on the base 18" wheels you need those EV01 aero wheels to match the Tesla 18" aeros, AND you would need the same highly efficient / low rolling resistance tires, the Michelin Primacy MXM4, or something just as efficient.

You can absolutely do that, and it should give essentially identical efficiency to an LR, so long as you're not using the P's extra power. However...the MXM4 are garbage for dry grip, wet grip, and road/handling feel. They're Prius tires, focused on efficiency above all else. My wife had us try them once on our Model S - never again. When we switched away from them even my wife was happy having more grip again. We never used them in the snow but I've read here they're bad in the snow too (even by all-season standards).

If you buy a Performance model, you might be someone who would appreciate higher performing tires even if they're not quite as efficient.

 

[tm1v2]

I heard from some the lowered suspension makes clearance difficult on some roads. This would be my family’s one and only car. Is that an actual issue?

@likkuid For sure, depending on the roads and how careful you can or want to be when driving over them. Personally I feel the M3P is a bit challenged for ground clearance and suspension compression travel already, when stock, so to me it doesn't make sense to lower for street driving on nasty real world roads. But it depends on how well maintained the roads you drive on are. We drive on all sorts of ill-maintained roads, as well as gravel and dirt driveways on a regular basis.

Some people just hate seeing wheel gap and love the look of a lowered car. That's fine...you just need to know what works for you, and what your priorities are. Lowering should be good for handling on smoother pavement too of course, e.g. if you do track days or autocross, lowering should be beneficial for those (in theory).

Btw I did upgrade my suspension with aftermarket coilovers, and a few bushing upgrades too, because I wasn't happy with the handling of the stock 2021 M3P suspension. HOWEVER...I setup my coilovers to match my car's stock height. That works much better for me and my wife (vs lowering). The car has since settled maybe 2-3mm lower, which is fine, can only really tell with a measuring tape anyways, though I may raise it up slightly at some point.

Apparently not all coilovers for this car support stock ride height, so if you ever go down this path but want to stay at stock height, like me, that's something to watch out for! Btw I'm not trying to steer you into modding the suspension, I'm only writing this because you mentioned lowering. If you're happy with the car's handling stock then keep it simple and save money by keeping it stock.

(However one word of warning: Please don't bother putting lowering springs on the stock dampers, unless all you care about is getting the look of a lowered car for cheap. The car is already underdampened when stock, putting stiffer lowering springs on it is not going to help the handling, especially over bad roads. I've seen lowered Model 3's bouncing around out of big dips and bumps, it looks terrible for ride and handling, and I'm sure what they did was put lowering springs on the stock dampers.)

Also, while I like the idea of selling the tires and switching to 18s, my concern with this is resale value as I would no longer have the stock parts.

I think that's a legit concern, especially If you might sell the car before it's really old and highly depreciated.

I kept my stock 20" wheels, no plans to sell them, even though I am also planning to keep my M3P for a decade or so and probably having the stock wheels won't matter much for resale once it's that old.

Same for our 2013 S P85 - still have the stock 21" wheels. Probably should have sold them years ago.

Was not aware ride and range would be the same…that is interesting. Thanks.

Yup. As someone mentioned earlier, when Tesla still sold a "stealth" performance that had the extra power and Track Mode but not the "Performance Upgrade Package" parts, it had identical range/efficiency rating as an LR on the same wheels+tires.

In theory the different brakes and the rear spoiler could effect efficiency too. But Tesla surely optimizes all of their brakes to avoid pad drag friction, and same for their optional spoilers to avoid any significant added drag. (Now if we were talking aftermarket brakes or spoiler I'd be very concerned about efficiency issues.)

 

[Evpowerdan]

I think the 19" (at least the 2018 ones) look 90% as good as 20" and have a good selection of efficient tires. The new 19" are not nearly as nice looking unfortunately. They remind me of the 20" wheels that came with my 2019 X. See below.

Here is my Performance Stealth on 19" with Pirelli P7+ tires. I got the same wh/mi with this setup as I did with the 18" with covers on.

These are the same no so pretty 20" wheels Tesla has moved to. Why, I don't know. But I bought a PPF kit for them to look like the upgraded wheels. I think they looked pretty good and they held up for two years just fine.

The new 19" sport wheels (2021-2022) with similar color to the 2022 model S Plain 21" wheels look sweet IMO. Not glass black, a mixture of satin and gray. Looks sweet and a mini Model S Plaid. You can plastic dip the wheels to find the color you want, as its only a $100 to do all four wheels. If you don't like it, peal it off, sell the 19" OEM wheels and buy the rims/wheels you want.

Add some black mirror covers, the Tesbro "pillar delete kit" and "the front bumper lip black out" and it will look completely different.

 

[mswlogo]

The new 19" sport wheels (2021-2022) with similar color to the 2022 model S Plain 21" wheels look sweet IMO. Not glass black, a mixture of satin and gray. Looks sweet and a mini Model S Plaid. You can plastic dip the wheels to find the color you want, as its only a $100 to do all four wheels. If you don't like it, peal it off, sell the 19" OEM wheels and buy the rims/wheels you want.

Add some black mirror covers, the Tesbro "pillar delete kit" and "the front bumper lip black out" and it will look completely different.


View attachment 821775

I don’t care for them. Not as bad in gunmetal but I still prefer the old ones.

Rim is to tall between the tire and the hole for the spoke. I filled that area in with the black satin PPF on the X.

I love the look of the 22” on the The refresh X. But I’d never go with a low profile set up. 21” LR/Plaid look nice too.

 

[NowIsGood]

Thanks all. Looking at these Winter photos, do you think this poses a problem for the lower suspension? Or is it really that minuscule a difference? On the website the image doesn't even change between P and LR for suspension.

I don't think those photos pose any problem for the 0.5" lower suspension. It's not a miniscule difference but it's pretty small. On a truly unplowed road, it might matter a little, but then you're really wanting something other than a Tesla Model 3, regardless of configuration.

Also, while I like the idea of selling the tires and switching to 18s, my concern with this is resale value as I would no longer have the stock parts..

If you get nice, "average-looking" wheels (e.g., nothing outlandish/orange/etc.), I question whether it would affect resale value. A lot of P drivers prefer 19s or 18s anyway, and you can get various Tesla "replica" wheels, like from T-Sportline, that still look pretty "stock" (that's what I did eventually).

 

[Evpowerdan]

I don’t care for them. Not as bad in gunmetal but I still prefer the old ones.

Rim is to tall between the tire and the hole for the spoke. I filled that area in with the black satin PPF on the X.

I love the look of the 22” on the The refresh X. But I’d never go with a low profile set up. 21” LR/Plaid look nice too.

That updated "sport 19" wheel" IMO looks so similar to the Model S Plaid when done in the same color. Everyone has their preferences, however its so similar to the Model S Plaid - it looks like a "mini Me" to me!

 

[tm1v2]

I heard from some the lowered suspension makes clearance difficult on some roads. This would be my family’s one and only car. Is that an actual issue?

@likkuid I'm realizing now you're just asking about the stock M3P "lowered suspension." First, Tesla no longer lists the M3P as having lowered suspension, they stopped earlier in 2022. At least for US spec cars. Probably if you buy a new M3P now it'll be the same height (within tolerances) as an M3LR. (The only way to know for sure, is with a tape measure.)

Even when the M3P really was lower, like in 2021 when my wife and I bought ours, it was barely lower. I could see the difference side-by-side when looking for it, but just on its own, our M3P didn't look lowered the way aftermarket lowering suspensions do. I decided for me that wasn't a show-stopper, I still wanted the M3P for its other benefits, especially Track Mode.

 

[tm1v2]

@likkuid One more P vs LR thing I'm not seeing discussed here...only the P gets Track Mode. To me that's huge, Track Mode is by far the main reason I got the P over the LR. There is no upgrade path to get Track Mode in an LR.

Do you care about putting the power down coming out of turns? Need Track Mode.

Do you care about having freedom to push the car to its absolute limits and beyond? Need Track Mode. Note even if you wouldn't drift on dry pavement, think about driving in the snow. Personally I'd be super frustrated if I couldn't dial back the nannies in the snow.

Do you like the idea of cranking up the regen extra strong, so you can do one-pedal driving (OPD) at a faster pace on twisty back roads? Need Track Mode. (Note this helps efficiency in such driving, in addition to the comfort/convenience of OPD.)

For the majority of drivers out there those things are irrelevant, Track Mode provides no value, they'd never use it. But maybe you'd like it.

 

[Figure8]

Currently have a LR on order. Given monthly interest rate hikes (full-point hike expected mid-July here in Canada), the cost of the acceleration boost, and not having to go Blue for a quicker delivery, the P may end up costing the same as the LR+Boost as it delivers much sooner.

I am buying winter tires regardless. However, my concern is the pothole magnet tires on the P, the reduced range, and a less smooth ride. Acceleration wise, I love it.

I’m considering making a separate order for a P as a hedge against interest rates and cancelling the one I don’t go with.

Would love anyone’s thoughts, particularly on the P in cold weather. Here in Toronto it’s effectively Winter half the year…Thanks.

I asked myself the same question and went with the P. Gonna boil down to how much more range you really need on the daily. My vote is go with the P, throw some 19” on it and call it a day.

 

[Clover]

The Performance was an easy choice for me with the even smaller price delta. I was already going to get two sets of wheels and tires, so selling the nicer Performance wheels for more will help. Track mode is huge for me. Not sure I would buy it without track mode in fact. I'll use the extra brakes. I wish they had sport seats and steering wheels, and wider lighter wheels and wider tires.