Phantom braking so bad I want to return my car

[cmy4x4]

Just returned from a trip to Fort Worth and the phantom braking was horrible. I thought it had been fixed with software updates (currently at 2022.20.8), but NO it reared it's ugly head again. Uphill/downhill, day/night, clear road or other traffic made no difference. The last time I submitted a service request for this, Tesla's response was that there was NO PROBLEM that the car was performing normally and "learning" (REALLY?). This is very dangerous and renders the cruise control useless. Glad I didn't throw away $12k on FSD.

 

[WhiteWi]

Cool story

 

[DayTrippin]

Just returned from a trip to Fort Worth and the phantom braking was horrible. I thought it had been fixed with software updates (currently at 2022.20.8), but NO it reared it's ugly head again. Uphill/downhill, day/night, clear road or other traffic made no difference. The last time I submitted a service request for this, Tesla's response was that there was NO PROBLEM that the car was performing normally and "learning" (REALLY?). This is very dangerous and renders the cruise control useless. Glad I didn't throw away $12k on FSD.

I don't know if it is something about Ft Worth, but driving to there is the only time so far I've experienced any PB events with my 3. With my Y some of the worst PB events outside a stretch of road in Mississippi were on the way to Ft Worth. There is also a section of I20 by Tyler Texas that the person who bought my Y still experiences a severe PB event almost every time he drives through there.

 

[ElectricAnt54]

Had no phantom braking on a trip last week. Los Angeles to Fair Oaks, California. 709 miles round trip. I used autopilot with autosteer most of the time. 2022 Model Y performance, no front radar, Intel atom infotainment, no FSD. Firmware 2022.20.8 .

 

[sleepydoc]

Every other companies lane keeping (or intelligent cruise) function is far worse and have the same problems. Less so in Tesla, but since Tesla's Autopilot is so good, it is used extensively by everyone and the problems are just magnified. The other companies lane keeping function, drivers hardly use it and so you don't hear about it.

If NHTSA were to focus on Tesla's phantom braking problem, then they better give the same attention to other manufacturers too.

This is patently false.

Tesla’s adaptive cruise system (TACC) is likely the worst on the market. In every other car I’ve driven with adaptive cruise (Toyota, Lexus, Nissan, Chevrolet, BMW) the adaptive cruise system has worked flawlessly. That is to say I can set it and drive without keeping my foot hovering over the accelerator because I never know when the car will suddenly start to slow down for no apparent reason.

If you’re talking about autopilot, Mercedes Benz is rolling out level 3 automation for their version of autopilot. Granted It’s in a very limited set of circumstances and IME Autopilot functions perfectly (or close to it) if you only Consider these circumstances, but clearly they have a system on par with Tesla‘s for highway use.

I’ve also read several reviews of GM’s Supercruise and Ford’s Bluecruise systems. most reviews give them high marks and put them on par or above Autopilot. (Of note, supercruise can change lanes on the highway, autopilot can’t. I expect this to change soon but for right now that’s a limitation of Autopilot)

As far as false AEB activations go, I’ve only driven 2 cars with these - our Subaru Forester and Tesla Model Y. The subaru has had exactly zero false AEB activations. My MY has had 2 or 3. This isn’t enough to prove that the Tesla is worse but 3 activations in 22,000 miles vs. 0 activations in 15,000 miles isn’t lookign good for Tesla.

 

[sleepydoc]

Cool story

You disagreed with @cmy4x4’s post - just what do you disagree with? Are you saying s/he is lying and making up the problems? Or do they just not agree with your rosy view of Tesla being perfect?

 

[MylerB]

All of these PB reports had me worried before buying a Tesla, but I took the chance - I got my MYLR in February, and have not had a single occurrence of phantom braking. Occasionally it'll slow down a bit when there's a bicycle or pedestrian on the road, or on very curvy sections where autopilot isn't really intended for anyway. Sometimes it slows when a car is turning in front of me, and I don't think the slowdown was really necessary. But ho hard braking that was any cause for alarm.

Good to know. The only concern I have is that my car is “vision only” (VO) and does not have radar. Apparently, the pattern seems to be that newer VO cars have more PB issues while “older” teslas that still have radar don’t seem to have the issue as much.

With that said, I am definitely encouraged by everybody’s posts here. We’re going to get the car either way, and I suppose I will just have to see for myself if I have any braking issues. Sounds like it is indeed a small minority that have the brutal, slam-the-brakes-at-75mph scares. Fingers crossed that isn’t me!

I appreciate the feedback everybody. Great group you all have here!

 

[Fourdoor]

Good to know. The only concern I have is that my car is “vision only” (VO) and does not have radar. Apparently, the pattern seems to be that newer VO cars have more PB issues while “older” teslas that still have radar don’t seem to have the issue as much.

With that said, I am definitely encouraged by everybody’s posts here. We’re going to get the car either way, and I suppose I will just have to see for myself if I have any braking issues. Sounds like it is indeed a small minority that have the brutal, slam-the-brakes-at-75mph scares. Fingers crossed that isn’t me!

I appreciate the feedback everybody. Great group you all have here!

PB used to be horrible with vision only cars, it was bad enough that I actually regretted purchasing my car... but it improved by a huge amount after the NHTSA investigation was started... now it is pretty comparable to the radar equipped cars unless you have FSD Beta... if you have FSD Beta it is still significantly more paranoid than regular AP with vision only or with radar.

I do wish that it didn't presume that everyone walking on the side of the road was heII bent on jumping out in front of the car.

Keith

 

[sleepydoc]

PB used to be horrible with vision only cars, it was bad enough that I actually regretted purchasing my car... but it improved by a huge amount after the NHTSA investigation was started... now it is pretty comparable to the radar equipped cars unless you have FSD Beta... if you have FSD Beta it is still significantly more paranoid than regular AP with vision only or with radar.

I do wish that it didn't presume that everyone walking on the side of the road was heII bent on jumping out in front of the car.

Keith

People on FSDb get far fewer updates than other owners (I'm still on 2022.12.3.20, the most current non-FSDb version is 2022.24.x) so if you're in the FSDb program you're usually several steps behind in terms of software. It's hard to know if the PB events I'm having are from the FSDb software affecting TACC or just because I'm on an older version. I've definitely seen improvements in PB since I got my car but my current (FSDb) software is still worse than any other car I've driven with adaptive cruise. Keeping my fingers crossed that the next upgrade continues the improvements.

People often cite vision as the reason for TACC's poor performance. It may be a reason but it's not an excuse. We have a Subaru Forester that uses a vision system for it's adaptive cruise and it works flawlessly so there's no reason Tesla should need radar to work correctly. I suspect they simply switched from radar to a vision-based system before they had adequately tested the software and we got to experience the results.

 

[WhiteWi]

Subaru system is not prefect. We already discussed that.

 

[cbdream99]

I have much less PB using AP on highway but FSDb on city is another story. It will brake for no apparently reason, sometimes when it passes a storm drain, sometimes not, now whenever there is a car waiting (not moving) to get out of a strip mall on my right, it will brake or worse sometimes sway to the left even if I am on the outer left lane on a 2 lanes road, and sometimes no problem at all. It consistently inconsistent behavior.

 

[SkyDog]

Good to know. The only concern I have is that my car is “vision only” (VO) and does not have radar. Apparently, the pattern seems to be that newer VO cars have more PB issues while “older” teslas that still have radar don’t seem to have the issue as much.

With that said, I am definitely encouraged by everybody’s posts here. We’re going to get the car either way, and I suppose I will just have to see for myself if I have any braking issues. Sounds like it is indeed a small minority that have the brutal, slam-the-brakes-at-75mph scares. Fingers crossed that isn’t me!

I appreciate the feedback everybody. Great group you all have here!

Just to clarify: I got my MYLR this February, so it's vision only. Radar was discontinued a while ago. With Vision only, I haven't had a single instance of phantom braking.

 

[cbdream99]

Just to clarify: I got my MYLR this February, so it's vision only. Radar was discontinued a while ago. With Vision only, I haven't had a single instance of phantom braking.

Once FSDb is enabled, radar is supposed to be disabled too…

 

[Electroman]

Mine was from Nov 2020. I presume it is vision only. No phantom braking.

 

[sleepydoc]

Subaru system is not prefect. We already discussed that.

You posted some scattered examples of false activations of the Subaru AEB system. That’s separate from adaptive cruise. I’ve driven hundreds of miles with no phantom braking using Subaru’s adaptive cruise. Not rare cases, no cases. Zero. Zip. My model Y can barely go 10 miles (and that’s not an exaggeration.) I asked my coworker who has a Subaru if she’s ever had an issue with her adaptive cruise control - nope. Yes, the adaptive cruise on the Subaru is for all intents and purposes perfect. Tesla’s TACC is… imperfect.

As far as AEB systems go, we’ve had zero instances in about 12,000 miles of driving with our Subaru. My coworker has has zero in 30,000 miles. I think I’ve had 3 or 4 cases in 22,000 miles in my Tesla. The Subaru AEB system may not be perfect but it’s still orders of magnitude better than Tesla’s.

So yeah, are you still trying to argue that Tesla’s adaptive cruise and AEB systems are better? Because you’d better have some good data. Otherwise you’ll just look like another blathering fanboy.

 

[Electroman]

You posted some scattered examples of false activations of the Subaru AEB system. That’s separate from adaptive cruise. I’ve driven hundreds of miles with no phantom braking using Subaru’s adaptive cruise. Not rare cases, no cases. Zero. Zip. My model Y can barely go 10 miles (and that’s not an exaggeration.) I asked my coworker who has a Subaru if she’s ever had an issue with her adaptive cruise control - nope. Yes, the adaptive cruise on the Subaru is for all intents and purposes perfect. Tesla’s TACC is… imperfect.

As far as AEB systems go, we’ve had zero instances in about 12,000 miles of driving with our Subaru. My coworker has has zero in 30,000 miles. I think I’ve had 3 or 4 cases in 22,000 miles in my Tesla. The Subaru AEB system may not be perfect but it’s still orders of magnitude better than Tesla’s.

So yeah, are you still trying to argue that Tesla’s adaptive cruise and AEB systems are better? Because you’d better have some good data. Otherwise you’ll just look like another blathering fanboy.

I suspect you are not paying your car loan on time. I have seen people complain about similar problems when their payments are not on time.

 

[sleepydoc]

I suspect you are not paying your car loan on time. I have seen people complain about similar problems when their payments are not on time.

Do you realize what you’re suggesting? You’re implying that Tesla deliberately sabotages the software in people’s cars. Is the thought that Tesla’s software isn’t perfect so objectionable that it’s preferable to claim so nefarious?

Financing is handled by separate financial organizations so Tesla would have no way of knowing if the payment was made or not. They get their money as soon as the loan is originated.

In any case it’s irrelevant - the car is paid in full.

 

[cmy4x4]

Regardless of the experiences described in this thread, my car is still exhibiting the Phantom Braking phenomenon. Tesla’s response to me:

 

[Icehedgehog88]

Yes - I’ve experienced the phantom braking and it sure scares the out of ya. But here is an interesting twist and not sure others have noticed this. I’d have AP engaged and set to 75mph in a 65mph zone. Traffic was all moving at 75mph or more. I crossed from a 65mph zone to a 55mph zone (everyone was still driving 75mph) and the AP braked aggressively to, yes, get the speed down to 55mph. Was a little surprised when this happened and it has happened more than once. Now I’m starting to wonder if some (and I do mean some) of these phantom braking issues are related to AP moving between speed zones.

 

[charlesoris]

I suspect you are not paying your car loan on time. I have seen people complain about similar problems when their payments are not on time.

I am not sure I understand your statement correctly, but I have never been late on my payments. Yet, I have experienced several PB events which made my rides less than pleasant.
A hi-res radar coupled with a Vision system would probably prevent 99% of PB events in the future, IMHO.