Picking Used

[chuck007]

Ok...lets keep it simple. Which pick here would be the best buy (all things being equal ) An S75, S75D, S85D or P85D ??

 

[McMoo]

75D if you want FSD otherwise P85DL or P90DL if you want speed.

Personally, I went with a new model 3 instead and think a new model Y is another great option.

Try to drive them.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

the Best Buy is the one that offers an optimal combination of delivery, price, quality and other benefits in meeting a buyer's specific need.

We have no idea what your specific needs are.

1. What is your budget?
2. How far do you drive daily?
3. Do you plan to charge at your domicile?
4. Do you need a hatchback?
5. How large is your family?
6. Do you know that pre-Feb 2019 Model S's with 85Kw + battery have 8 year UNLIMITED mileage drive unit and battery warranties and the new S 3 Y don't.
7. Do you need Free Unlimited Supercharging?
8. Do you do a lot of long distant travel in cold weather?
9. Why are you considering a Tesla?
10. What other brands are you shopping and why?
11. What are your top 5 must have features?
12. Are you under 5' 4" and need a adjustable shoulder belt?
13. Do you want a sunroof (kiss all the cars good bye except <2018 Model S's)
14. Do you understand that smaller batteries charge slower?
15. Do you understand that smaller batteries have worse warranties (60, 70, 75 kW do not have unlimited mileage warranties on Model S)
16. Do you need to tow (all can, but their are unique restrictions for each platform)
17. Do you have to carry a stroller and do you want to carry it in the frunk - only RWD Model S's can do that.
18. Do you like to speed? if so how fast (impacts range)
19. Is your spouse patient?
20. Can she tolerate sitting a supercharger at night in crappy area of town?
21. Do you live in California? Do you lose power a lot?
22. Do you like fast acceleration?
23. do you need a lot of range?
24. Are you uncomfortable using new technology that gets updated constantly (firmware updates), changing a User Interface the you have learned and love?
25. Does a fart app make you laugh or cry?
26. Would you be upset if driving a Tesla made people think you were a tree hugging liberal?
27. Do you have respiratory issues and need biohazard filter mode?
28. Does your neighbor catch on fire every year due to the inability to do forest management? (recommend getting the biohazard mode)
29. Do you need AWD?
30. Do you need sporty, hey look at me - I blow $500 per wheel every year for no on road benefit tire, or does an all season $250 tire that can go several years work for you?
31. Did you know that larger wheels reduce Tesla range significantly
32. Did you know that summer tires reduce Tesla range significantly
33. Do you need a roof rack?
34. Do you want to race your car on track? (Eliminates Model S, X )
35. Do you realize that a Tesla is like a large iPhone, and needs to have the eMMC updated after years of use?
36. Would you be upset if a new body design came out in November (Model S), reducing your cars market value?
37. Do you commute in heavy traffic? (FSD may be in your future)

 

[MarkLy]

The other consideration is battery degradation, a used P90D is likely to have less range than a P85D at this point. The 90kw battery has a much faster degradation rate than an 85, on average at 40K miles they are holding a similar charge after that the 90 drops off a lot faster. I'd be looking for a P85D, currently they are valued slightly less than a P90D which IMHO is crazy. The P85D is a great blend of looks, power, luxury and the AP1 stills does most of the current autopilot functions as good as any.

 

[Ostrichsak]

The other consideration is battery degradation, a used P90D is likely to have less range than a P85D at this point. The 90kw battery has a much faster degradation rate than an 85, on average at 40K miles they are holding a similar charge after that the 90 drops off a lot faster. I'd be looking for a P85D, currently they are valued slightly less than a P90D which IMHO is crazy. The P85D is a great blend of looks, power, luxury and the AP1 stills does most of the current autopilot functions as good as any.

That's a pretty broad blanket statement that doesn't hold true in every single case. Best bet is to compare specific examples when shopping used.

 

[MarkLy]

That's a pretty broad blanket statement that doesn't hold true in every single case. Best bet is to compare specific examples when shopping used.

How are you going to judge the degradation rate, going forward, of a particular car?

 

[Ostrichsak]

How are you going to judge the degradation rate, going forward, of a particular car?

What does that have to do with what you said? Your blanket statement that a P90D was more likely to have more battery degradation than a P85D so it should be avoided & the P85D should be worth more is kind of a reach, to put it politely.

A P90D starts life with a rated 270 miles of range and is newer based on when the 90kWh packs came out. The P85D starts life at 253 miles of range and is older based on when the 85kWh packs came out. It would take a MUCH higher rate of degradation (given we're talking only 10% give or take a couple of percent after 4-5 years across the board for all cars and all packs) to make up that difference given those two factors and that's assuming ALL 90's have a higher rate of degradation than the 85's which simply isn't the case. You'd have to overcome the nearly 10% higher range out-of-the-gate and the one year or so less degradation based on age. Good luck.

It would take an exception to the degradation data set on the far positive side of the scale for the P85D and an exception to the data set on the far negative side of the scale for a P90D for it to actually have less range. In other words, you'd have to find to rare examples for that to hold true. Making a blanket statement that this is somehow the norm is kind of crazy based on how the planets would have to align for that statement to be factual.

This false premise that all of the 90 cars are somehow turds and should be avoided at all costs is hugely exaggerated. You're going to see roughly 5% degradation that first year of a new Tesla's life followed by a percent or two the year after and then it quickly drops to somewhere less than 1% per year after that, not counting outliers.

This idea that most P90D's will have less range than older P85D's and therefore should be avoided has based on no actual facts and is misleading.

 

[Rmf1981]

Ostrichsak -

Since this isn't a for sale thread, I figure we can continue the conversation. I know we don't always see eye to eye, but I have a genuine question for you here given that you seem to know a lot about this.

The idea that is being brought up here, that the 90 batteries are inferior, is not a new idea. I have seen this oft repeated on these forms as well as others. If I recall correctly, there was something about the early generation 90 batteries being somehow inferior.supposedly, whatever the issue was was corrected in the later versions?

Was there an actual issue or something inherently inferior about the 90 batteries? If so, do you have an idea of what it was?

I personally had a 90 battery with no issues, but I honestly have no idea what generation it was, etc.

Interested to learn more about this.

Ryan

 

[Xenoilphobe]

Wonder what the price delta is for those 17 extra miles going from P85D to P90D on the used market?
I personally would only consider a used P100D or 100D for this exact reason, less degradation, more range, no speculation on whether a 90 has issues or not, there is a lot of FUD out there on the 90, we have one and it rocks, but I wish I had gotten the 100D instead and won't make that mistake twice. Always buy the top range model for charging speed, range, durability, and resale value.

 

[Target]

Wonder what the price delta is for those 17 extra miles going from P85D to P90D on the used market?
I personally would only consider a used P100D or 100D for this exact reason, less degradation, more range, no speculation on whether a 90 has issues or not, there is a lot of FUD out there on the 90, we have one and it rocks, but I wish I had gotten the 100D instead and won't make that mistake twice. Always buy the top range model for charging speed, range, durability, and resale value.

To your point a 75D contains the same cells as the 100 series and offers very similar range as an 85 car due to how much the 85 packs were below their name plate rating when new (77KWH usable when new) and the general increases in efficiency with the newer car. I have started seeing 75D's for reasonable prices now, and wouldn't hesitate to buy one depending on my needs / wants. As mentioned previously we don't know the buyers needs / wants exactly so I can only speak generally.
Reference:
Tesla, please stop making up specifications... | wk057's SkieNET...

If you go 75, get a 75D model that has been "uncorked" for best acceleration. Still not P85D fast. If operating costs are a concern, then a 75D should have the lowest operating costs/risk if you get the correct warranty configuration. If money was no object I doubt you would be asking about this price range of cars. If this will be your first Model S and you haven't previously owned a lower volume higher end vehicle then please don't ignore maintenance costs. When stuff breaks it will be more expensive than an average car to repair. If you have S already feel free to ignore that as you should know that already.

Generally I would look for something with a warranty bumper to bumper to cover me for a while. This can be obtained by buying a car with an existing extended warranty (ESA) (usually first owner cars private party), a third party warranty (Xcare), or by buying a used car from the Tesla website (ev-cpo.com). In general you will be treated better by Tesla if you buy used either from a private party or directly from them. If you buy from a non Tesla dealer, Tesla might abuse you in unpredictable ways. Even if you buy it from one of these private party or from Tesla they still might abuse you, but it seems less likely.

DON'T buy a salvage / rebuilt title car!!!! Lemon law buybacks might be OK, but generally they aren't selling with enough discount to make it worth it. Just keep looking to find one without those issues. Seriously, don't do it!

 

[Target]

Ostrichsak -

Since this isn't a for sale thread, I figure we can continue the conversation. I know we don't always see eye to eye, but I have a genuine question for you here given that you seem to know a lot about this.

The idea that is being brought up here, that the 90 batteries are inferior, is not a new idea. I have seen this oft repeated on these forms as well as others. If I recall correctly, there was something about the early generation 90 batteries being somehow inferior.supposedly, whatever the issue was was corrected in the later versions?

Was there an actual issue or something inherently inferior about the 90 batteries? If so, do you have an idea of what it was?

I personally had a 90 battery with no issues, but I honestly have no idea what generation it was, etc.

Interested to learn more about this.

Ryan

My understanding of the issue is that they contain more Silicon
Charged EVs | Tesla tweaks its battery chemistry: a closer look at silicon anode development


"
Silicon’s challenges, however, arise from the same attributes that make it attractive. Unlike the porous graphite material that has specific sites open and waiting for ions, when the lithium-silicon alloy forms, the structure of the anode changes, resulting in large volumetric fluctuations. For example, if a particle of silicon absorbs as much lithium as thermodynamically possible, its volume increases by about 300%. That compares to about 7% expansion observed in the intercalation of lithium into graphite.

The problem with the current state of silicon anodes is that the repeated expansion and contraction during charging and discharging leads to drastically reduced cycle life.
"

"
The SEI layer is what enables the battery to operate in an efficient and reversible manner. It’s a film composed of electrolyte reduction products that start forming on the surface of the anode during the initial battery charge. It functions as an ionic conductor that enables lithium to migrate through the film during charging and discharging. Under typical operating conditions, it also serves as an electronic insulator that prevents further electrolyte reduction on the anode.



“With silicon anodes, a nice passivation layer is formed on the particles,” explained Strand. “But as the silicon expands and contracts, it essentially cracks apart that layer and then makes more. Over time it ends up with a very thick resistive film on the anode, which causes it to lose both capacity and power. So that’s the other mechanism that causes the cell to fade very fast.”
"

The article continues to further describe the issues and is a good read.
I doubt I could explain it better than it does.

 

[Target]

One other thing I forgot to mention, there are software locked versions of the 75 out there listed as 60's or 70's. I don't know if those are interesting to you but you might research that topic too if you decide to go the 75 route.

There are also true 60's and 70's that you DON'T want, but if I recall you can tell by the year of the vehicle. I don't know if there is an overlap on 70 actual versus 70 software locked.

 

[MarkLy]

What does that have to do with what you said? Your blanket statement that a P90D was more likely to have more battery degradation than a P85D so it should be avoided & the P85D should be worth more is kind of a reach, to put it politely.

A P90D starts life with a rated 270 miles of range and is newer based on when the 90kWh packs came out. The P85D starts life at 253 miles of range and is older based on when the 85kWh packs came out. It would take a MUCH higher rate of degradation (given we're talking only 10% give or take a couple of percent after 4-5 years across the board for all cars and all packs) to make up that difference given those two factors and that's assuming ALL 90's have a higher rate of degradation than the 85's which simply isn't the case. You'd have to overcome the nearly 10% higher range out-of-the-gate and the one year or so less degradation based on age. Good luck.

It would take an exception to the degradation data set on the far positive side of the scale for the P85D and an exception to the data set on the far negative side of the scale for a P90D for it to actually have less range. In other words, you'd have to find to rare examples for that to hold true. Making a blanket statement that this is somehow the norm is kind of crazy based on how the planets would have to align for that statement to be factual.

This false premise that all of the 90 cars are somehow turds and should be avoided at all costs is hugely exaggerated. You're going to see roughly 5% degradation that first year of a new Tesla's life followed by a percent or two the year after and then it quickly drops to somewhere less than 1% per year after that, not counting outliers.

This idea that most P90D's will have less range than older P85D's and therefore should be avoided has based on no actual facts and is misleading.

I'm not going to respond to all of your inaccurate quotes, see if you can follow the graph.

 

[Target]

Possible sources of the graph:
Tesla data shows battery degradation is limited but not all packs are created equal - Electrek
A look at Tesla battery degradation and replacement after 400,000 miles - Electrek
In case someone wants to read the info behind the picture.

 

[Target]

Thinking about that graph it makes sense that it is shows the 90KWH batteries in a poor light. They were fairly new when this data was "released" so they would still be on their initial capacity drop, where the 85's would be down the road farther where the slope flattens out and as such will look better by comparison. You can see this in the lack of green dots to the right of 40K miles. There are some over there of course. I just feel like this data was extrapolated out to far to be truly useful.

I don't agree with everything the author said in the linked articles either, and I suspect that if we had a current version of that data it would look a bit different.

My personal feelings are that I would not buy a true 70, and would be reluctant to buy a 90, but might anyway considering how fast I turn cars over. This isn't based on these graphs but more on the science of Silicon in current Lithium Ion batteries as linked earlier.

 

[The T-man]

fwiw if range is important at all get the biggest battery you can afford
I got a 85 and am looking for a 100