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Poll: $100 Billion - Elon or Green Fund?

Discussion in 'Tesla, Inc.' started by Reciprocity, Jun 5, 2017.

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Who would best utilize 100B a year to save the Environment?

  1. Elon

    81.4%
  2. UN Green Fund

    18.6%
  1. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    #41 stopcrazypp, Jun 6, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
    I think saying the accord has no repercussions is a strawman. Let's say it does: will the same people against it, suddenly support it? I think the answer is clearly hell no. You can read Trump's statement on the accord. It clearly talks about the climate target commitments being negative for America. That there are no repercussions is irrelevant. As one of the large nations, our agreement is enough to make it so America is obligated to perform (or at very least very close) or we lose credibility. Adding repercussions will only make it worse to the people opposed to the agreement.

    The reason to oppose is very clear, and Trump even said so: leaving allows America to continue polluting (concrete example mentioned: opening new coal mines). Leaving is the first steps in walking back on the progress we have made under Obama (coal was moving toward extinction, as it should).
     
  2. Reciprocity

    Reciprocity Active Member

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    That is silly, Trump said the opposite, he said that we would continue to decrease our emissions. If Obama thought this was so great, why didnt he bring it to the senate to ratify? Because he is arrogant and he knew it would never pass. Coal is bad yes.. but its much cleaner in the US then it is in Germany.
     
  3. abasile

    abasile Conscientious investor

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    Yes, in a hypothetical scenario where $100b/yr is up for grabs, Elon would spend the money more efficiently than the UN or any other government-type body. At the same time, it's not sustainable over the long haul to funnel funds through a single, powerful leader. As a case in point, benevolent dictatorships can be great while they last, but messy democracy is better in the long run.

    There needs to be some mechanism for distributing aid to poor nations suffering the consequences of emissions from wealthier nations. Arguably, it would be better for nations like ours to provide aid directly rather than going through the UN. However, I see this as a side issue.

    The Paris Agreement is worth supporting simply because it represents a broad international consensus that climate change needs to be urgently addressed. It doesn't have to be perfect in order to create, essentially, a sense of international "peer pressure" to compel each nation to reduce GHG emissions.
     
  4. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    Our emissions decreased in the recent years largely due to the recession. If we don't continue the policies set forth in Obama's clean power plan, our emissions are projected to increase in the next couple of decades as the economy recovers. But a simple decrease is not really what the accord addresses. Rather it sets targets that means a drastical decrease is required. That's what I mean, by polluting at the previous trajectory (as Trump suggests), maybe we might see modest decreases (depending on how the economy goes), but not nearly enough to make significant progress toward the goals set out in the accord.

    Lol, I'm getting deja vu from the other thread. Obama didn't bring the accord to the Senate, since for political reasons, the Republicans will oppose the measure. It's pretty obvious it's not even worth the effort.
     
  5. SageBrush

    SageBrush 2018: Drain the Sewer

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    More so the swap from coal to natural gas
     
  6. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    Depends on which study you looked at. Switch from coal to natural gas probably contributed, but this study showed the recession was a much bigger driver.
    Recession, not fracking, responsible for drop in U.S. emissions

    Basically the mapping between consumption (GDP per capita) and CO2 reduction is much stronger.
     
  7. Reciprocity

    Reciprocity Active Member

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    You lefties turn in each other so quickly. How long did it take for people to start ad campaigns against Elon for advising Trump. I guess the right is just as bad with the never Trump Republicans. We just can't set aside anything anymore and work on things that are good enough.

    Another reason I like Elon's approach. Half leftist half capitalist. Good solutions that work and are appealing.
     
  8. SageBrush

    SageBrush 2018: Drain the Sewer

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    All capitalist, but not an idiot.
     
  9. SageBrush

    SageBrush 2018: Drain the Sewer

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    I was thinking about emissions from electricity generation, while this study looked at overall emissions including, e.g., transport which is not affected by coal/NG at all.

    I was unable to read the article for free but the abstract does hint at one bone of contention: there is a wide range in estimates of how much methane is released to the atmosphere from NG extraction. If the authors chose the high side of estimates then I am not surprised by their results.
     
  10. omgwtfbyobbq

    omgwtfbyobbq Active Member

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    If there is a bureaucratic community, corporations are first class citizens. :D
     
  11. omgwtfbyobbq

    omgwtfbyobbq Active Member

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    I voted for the UN Green fund, mostly because Tesla is doing well already and there's plenty of market share for them to expand. Even if they used the $100 billion to build/give away 4 million $25,000 EVs per year, that's only 5% of all light duty vehicle sales. If Tesla were to implement and invest in products for the developing world, I could see them doing well, but that's not what they do. The UN would likely do well too. Overall, whoever invests more in the developing world will likely see a greater reduction in Carbon emissions per dollar.

    With that said, whether a company or government would do better depends more on the specifics of each situation than anything else. There are conditions where focusing on profit can lead to better outcomes, where it can lead to worse outcomes, or where it doesn't matter much either way. If profit leads to better outcomes, let private enterprise take the lead. If it hurts outcomes, let government do the work. If it doesn't matter, flip a coin.
     
  12. SageBrush

    SageBrush 2018: Drain the Sewer

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    Wake me up when trump spends $100B on grid decarbonization; then we can argue the merits of his choice over the green fund.
    In the meantime all he has done is spend money to promote coal, roll back vehicle fuel economy, gut the EPA and try and castrate CARB.

    He and his pack of loonies are an unmitigated disaster for the world's environment.
     
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