Poll: Fastest stock setup 0-60 -- Aeros or 20" Sport?

[Xenoilphobe]

That wasn't the question, though was it? We're talking off the lot setups from Tesla. Sure you could 'smoke' someone if you changed tires, wheels, pulled out all the seats, etc, etc, etc.... But we're not talking about how to make the Model 3 P a drag machine. The question in the poll refers to how Tesla has chosen to adorn the non-Performance upgrades version vs the Upgrade package, and how that might effect the dash to 60 mph....

Who would ever limit themselves to those two options when a $800 investment in performance tires, yields a savings of $4200 over the 20 inch wheel option (I think it's packaged with the $5000 "Select Performance Upgrade" option right (20" wheels, pretty red calipers, carbon fiber lip spoiler, and +10 MPH to 155, -10mm suspension height, and aluminum brake pedal/go pedal), with a massive increase in performance?

I would still go 18...and change the tires once I smoked the OEM tires... I bet they are 3/10ths difference, due to the weight gain with the 20's - they might be faster due to the A/S tires on the 18's, however this is in question too, as the 20 inch Michelin Pilot Super Sport 4s is using a new 500 UTQG compound that is harder than the 18 inch Michelin Pilot Super Sport 4s which is using a softer 300 UTQG. Either way this is a bad ass car that needs summers if your climate can tolerate those. If not with the $4200 savings you can get another set of Telsa wheels with winter tires for $2000 and still pocket $2200 for other stuff over the "Select Performance Upgrade"

 

[Funkmobile]

Who would ever limit themselves to those two options when a $800 investment in performance tires, yields a savings of $4200 over the 20 inch wheel option (I think it's packaged with the $5000 Performance option right (20" wheels, pretty red calipers, carbon fiber lip spoiler, and +10 MPH to 155, -10mm suspension height, and aluminum brake pedal/go pedal), with a massive increase in performance?

I would still go 18...and change the tires once I smoked the OEM tires... I bet they are 3/10ths difference, due to the weight gain with the 20's - they might be faster due to the A/S tires on the 18's, however this is in question too, as the 20 inch Michelin Pilot Super Sport 4s is using a new 500 UTQG compound that is harder than the 18 inch Michelin Pilot Super Sport 4s which is using a softer 300 UTQG. Either way this is a bad ass car that needs summers if your climate can tolerate those. If not with the $4200 savings you can get another set of wheels with winter tires and still have money left over.

The question of stock vs stock is very valid. Not everyone is looking to go all hardcore and race their car on their track 24/7. Most people who buy this car, the value proposition is that it's fast but PRACTICAL car. Practical traits include range, comfort, and convenience. Yes, you can go invest money in the aftermarket, but it usually means sacrificing practicality for more performance. In the case of the wheel selection, a compromise was chosen between range and performance. A lot of people want to know how much of a compromise the stock setup is.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

Tire changes are one of the most practical and value laden options that have an immediate tactile feedback.

I am curious about the comprises too, but don't want to re-live my Model S experience with the unpractical, fragile 21's, that was a serious unpractical OEM compromise that I will never tolerate again, costing my upwards of $25,000 in damaged wheels, acquisition costs, tires and poor lifecycle over three Model 's and 150,000 miles. never again. Worst compromise I ever made on the Model S purchase, I ended up moving back to the 19's on all three vehicles @ $2000 per vehicle.

 

[Knightshade]

The question of stock vs stock is very valid. Not everyone is looking to go all hardcore and race their car on their track 24/7. Most people who buy this car, the value proposition is that it's fast but PRACTICAL car. Practical traits include range, comfort, and convenience. Yes, you can go invest money in the aftermarket, but it usually means sacrificing practicality for more performance. In the case of the wheel selection, a compromise was chosen between range and performance. A lot of people want to know how much of a compromise the stock setup is.

FWIW, to me, the one thing I don't want to compromise is safety.

Putting PS 4s tires on the stock 18s will significantly shorten stopping distance.

Which seems like an awfully practical reason to do it.

the fact it'll also handle and accelerate significantly better are nice bonuses.... with shorter tire life being the drawback.

 

[khraiv]

Tire changes are one of the most practical and value laden options that have an immediate tactile feedback.

I am curious about the comprises too, but don't want to re-live my Model S experience with the unpractical, fragile 21's, that was a serious unpractical OEM compromise that I will never tolerate again, costing my upwards of $25,000 in damaged wheels, acquisition costs, tires and poor lifecycle over three Model 's and 150,000 miles. never again. Worst compromise I ever made on the Model S purchase, I ended up moving back to the 19's on all three vehicles @ $2000 per vehicle.

I'd like to learn more about this experience, and the correlation with stock upgrades offered by Tesla. Since this thread is about stock A vs stock B, I just want to make sure I'm understanding your point about your OEM experiences. Are you basically advising against stock aero+OEM-upgrades, or anti 20" (stock, perf) upgrades entirely?

 

[Xenoilphobe]

I'd like to learn more about this experience, and the correlation with stock upgrades offered by Tesla. Since this thread is about stock A vs stock B, I just want to make sure I'm understanding your point about your OEM experiences. Are you basically advising against stock aero+OEM-upgrades, or anti 20" (stock, perf) upgrades entirely?

Anti-20's, There is no practical performance or economic value gained with them. Additionally this car is HEAVY, (as is the Model S) and you dont need the added pressure on a lower profile tire with less protection between your wheels and the hazards on the road. Not only will you hear the noise (no engine to drown it out), it will grow old quickly. You will be almost guaranteed to have a cracked wheel at some point in your ownership cycle.

I believe the 18" aeros are the best value leader, and when equipped with the correct tire, aligned with the end user need: Summer, All Season or Winter, will provide an excellent experience. Performance, gained though the lighter wheel/tire setup is the side benefit of a lighter, smaller wheel with the correct rubber mounted for the end user outcome. This will have immediate positive impacts on range, handling, acceleration and a reduction in noise, vibration and harshness.

Think of the tires as shoes, get the ones you need for your lifestyle. Summer / Winter / All Seasons. If you live in a warm climate that never drops below 50 degrees, get summer tires, if you live in an extreme climate that stays below 50 degrees, you probably need an extra set of wheels with winter tires on it...

Any car delivered in California should have summer tires on it... its a crime that they delivering the P3D with all season tires in that state...if I lived in California I would wear them for now and replace with summer tires as soon as possible.

 

[Funkmobile]

So prelim results show traction is king:

P3D+ w/ 3 people in the car:

TLDW:
1st run - 0-60: 3.22
2nd run - 0-60: 3.15

 

[Xenoilphobe]

Not surprised, it's the summer tires always win in high temp/ dry conditions for traction. Kinda what I was trying to say in post #26 above. traction is king in HiPro cars.

 

[Funkmobile]

Not surprised, it's the summer tires always win in high temp/ dry conditions for traction. Kinda what I was trying to say in post #26 above. traction is king in HiPro cars.

View attachment 321607

I think most people knew that traction was definitely going to help with performance, however, but it was unclear how much a factor it would play when comparing the 18's with 20's. Hopefully we can see similar results from other P3D+ runs to corroborate the first batch of 0-60 runs. Also hopefully this helps people with their decision making when considering the pros and cons between the 18's and 20's.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

I think most people knew that traction was definitely going to help with performance, however, but it was unclear how much a factor it would play when comparing the 18's with 20's. Hopefully we can see similar results from other P3D+ runs to corroborate the first batch of 0-60 runs. Also hopefully this helps people with their decision making when considering the pros and cons between the 18's and 20's.

The wheel size has nothing to do with the performance results, its the TIRE or TYRE depending on where you live.

Also hot off the press - some cool aftermarket carbon fiber wheels also proves the weight point....

https://www.dymag.com/wp-content/up..._COPY_02)&mc_cid=b7f514fafb&mc_eid=a7f5cef0f1

 

[khraiv]

So prelim results show traction is king:

P3D+ w/ 3 people in the car:

TLDW:
1st run - 0-60: 3.22
2nd run - 0-60: 3.15

If true, this is very interesting data. Lowest accurate stock aero I've seen is 3.53s. I want to believe, but I don't know how accurate the results really are. It would help validate an earlier theory of mine that shows P3D is overpowered for its stock setup, and greatly lacks sufficient grip. I know many experienced folks in this area swear by lighter rims/tires (and vehicle), but in my opinion that has less of an impact when you're greatest vector for improvement is simply grip. Of course, every expert opinion on grip is tires tires tires (wider, stickier). However, in the theme of this thread, stock A vs stock B, it's really interesting to see what the *true* tradeoffs are.

The questions in my mind are:

* What is the true straight-line perf delta between Aero and Sport (most of early results are not terribly scientific/consistent yet)
* Breaking/handling improvements between aero and sport. Some swear that you won't notice unless you hit a track, but some interesting data suggests otherwise (less physical breaking force required, less roll on turns, etc). I'm more interested in real-world usage on this subject, and less theory.
* And thanks to great advice by @Xenoilphobe, I'm even more interested in the real long-term costs of the sport package. Obviously we won't have any long-term data on the P3D for quite a while, but I'd be interested in some additional viewpoints from model S owners that have gone with bigger rims.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

If true, this is very interesting data. Lowest accurate stock aero I've seen is 3.53s. I want to believe, but I don't know how accurate the results really are. It would help validate an earlier theory of mine that shows P3D is overpowered for its stock setup, and greatly lacks sufficient grip. I know many experienced folks in this area swear by lighter rims/tires (and vehicle), but in my opinion that has less of an impact when you're greatest vector for improvement is simply grip. Of course, every expert opinion on grip is tires tires tires (wider, stickier). However, in the theme of this thread, stock A vs stock B, it's really interesting to see what the *true* tradeoffs are.

The questions in my mind are:

* What is the true straight-line perf delta between Aero and Sport (most of early results are not terribly scientific/consistent yet)
* Breaking/handling improvements between aero and sport. Some swear that you won't notice unless you hit a track, but some interesting data suggests otherwise (less physical breaking force required, less roll on turns, etc). I'm more interested in real-world usage on this subject, and less theory.
* And thanks to great advice by @Xenoilphobe, I'm even more interested in the real long-term costs of the sport package. Obviously we won't have any long-term data on the P3D for quite a while, but I'd be interested in some additional viewpoints from model S owners that have gone with bigger rims.

More detail from the Model S - Downgrading to 19″ Wheels

 

[Funkmobile]

The wheel size has nothing to do with the performance results, its the TIRE or TYRE depending on where you live.

Also hot off the press - some cool aftermarket carbon fiber wheels also proves the weight point....

https://www.dymag.com/wp-content/up..._COPY_02)&mc_cid=b7f514fafb&mc_eid=a7f5cef0f1

My wheel size comment was indirectly saying it was unclear how much the increase in weight of the wheels (18 vs 20) would decrease performance vs the performance gained from switching to a stickier tire.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

@Funkmobile, I understand. I just want to see a fair matchup same tires with 18", 19", 20" with the same cars. I also suspect Tesla is playing with the software based on the wheel size selected in the MCU, probably to set the traction perimeters...you can do this in the Model S when switching between 19's and 21's.

I think this car can do much better runs with the right, lightweight setup- say total wheel/ tire package ~ 41 pounds. (~18 lbs wheel and ~ 23 pound tire). Bet you get closer to sub ~3 second car.

 

[Funkmobile]

@Funkmobile, I understand. I just want to see a fair matchup same tires with 18", 19", 20" with the same cars. I also suspect Tesla is playing with the software based on the wheel size selected in the MCU, probably to set the traction perimeters...you can do this in the Model S when switching between 19's and 21's.

I think this car can do much better runs with the right, lightweight setup- say total wheel/ tire package ~ 41 pounds. (~18 lbs wheel and ~ 23 pound tire). Bet you get closer to sub ~3 second car.

Yeah I suspected they may have tuned P3D vs P3D+ differently but Tesla being Tesla, we have to find out the hard way rather them laying out all the details up front.

Given that, there's a stronger possibility that "track mode" may be exclusive to P3D+, but of course that's another debate altogether.

 

[Mayhem]

More detail from the Model S - Downgrading to 19″ Wheels

Reading this makes me wish Tesla had a Performance upgrades package that included everything the current one does but with 19" instead of 20" at about $4000. For that, I'd bite. But I really dislike aeros.

 

[ronin]

Yeah I suspected they may have tuned P3D vs P3D+ differently but Tesla being Tesla, we have to find out the hard way rather them laying out all the details up front.

Given that, there's a stronger possibility that "track mode" may be exclusive to P3D+, but of course that's another debate altogether.

Wonder if the Performance Upgrade can be done later? Would be nice if they come out with the gun metal 20", pick the PUP with those for example.

 

[jdmasters]

Wonder if the Performance Upgrade can be done later? Would be nice if they come out with the gun metal 20", pick the PUP with those for example.

yeah, I might have pulled the trigger myself with gunmetal.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

@Mayhem
That would be cool, if they did that, I also think the 20" tire they chose is the newer longer wearing 500 UTQG Michelin PSS 4s summer tire, so it won't wear as fast, but it also isn't as "sticky" as the the 18" Michelin PSS 4S with 300 UTQG. I suspect the latter might do better. The 19" Michelin PSS 4S is also a 300 UTQG, which means its "sticker" too. The stock 19"s Continental ProContact RX have a 400 UTQG rating in a Grand Touring All Season tire, so not so good for a HiPro Car..

Tirerack.com needs to do a test using the Model 3.

 

[Funkmobile]

Wonder if the Performance Upgrade can be done later? Would be nice if they come out with the gun metal 20", pick the PUP with those for example.

I personally don't think they'll be offering a AWD to P upgrade in the near future 0-4 years at least. It makes absolutely no sense from a business decision/marketing standpoint for them to do it. 4+ years down the road when they're well into the Model Y production and maybe a Model 3 refresh, there's a small chance they may offer it. Warranty repair rates and future marketing objectives will play a strong factor in that decision.