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Powerwall 2: SGIP/Incentives

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OK, I'm at the point of applying to be a homeowner/developer where my RRF application is ready to be submitted but I am still waiting for a developer key. I thought I'd give an overview of the process for anyone else interested in doing this:

1) Get a developer key. SGIP | Developer Registration For me this has been the slowest part, apparently the process has changed from the early posts in this thread. I submitted the older form on October 27, which is around the time the newer form came out. I got a response 3 weeks later asking for more information. I submitted further information referencing the developer activities listed in CPUC Resolution 4887, http://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDocs/Published/G000/M197/K216/197216880.PDF (well, actually I referenced a draft version I found) I see that the new developer application form has these 13 developer activities listed already.
[snip]
Welcome fellow applicant.

I too am waiting for a developer-key from SCE. It's been a calendar week since, tomorrow.

Meantime, for the other RRF and other form fields, I'm trying to submit for the rebate (to get into the queue) before Tesla ever gets back to me with a contract, and installation. I should be able to do that to get into the conditional status?

I won't have any of the interconnect, permit, etc documentation until Telsa gets to me in that interest-free deposit queue.
 
That said, if I rightly recall, there are posts upthread which assert that it's possible to claim the ITC based on the full cost while simultaneously receiving the full SGIP rebate.

Well you certainly can do it. Then it is a matter of if you get caught by the IRS or not. (Does SGIP send data about paid incentives to the IRS to compare with ITC submissions?)
 
Welcome fellow applicant.

I too am waiting for a developer-key from SCE. It's been a calendar week since, tomorrow.

Meantime, for the other RRF and other form fields, I'm trying to submit for the rebate (to get into the queue) before Tesla ever gets back to me with a contract, and installation. I should be able to do that to get into the conditional status?

I won't have any of the interconnect, permit, etc documentation until Telsa gets to me in that interest-free deposit queue.
I assume you are meaning to say you are trying to get SGIP step 2 even though you don't have your Tesla contract or installation date yet? The way the process is set up is that you need a approved application before they "reserve" funds for you in the current step. They will send you a confirmation letter stating how much rebate and at which step they reserved funds for you. Having the funds reserved doesn't mean you are getting paid, it just means you have 12 months to jump through the loops and once you do, having all the documents and inspections finished, you will get the rebate that they reserved for you stated in your letter. You can't get through the application process without a signed contract from a battery manufacturer (Tesla, LG Chem etc.) You don't need to show proof of a permit or interconnect agreement for reserving funds. But you will need permits, interconnection, installation in order to receive payment. Confirmed conditional status basically requires a contract, with a manufacturer and a certified installer.
 
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Meantime, for the other RRF and other form fields, I'm trying to submit for the rebate (to get into the queue) before Tesla ever gets back to me with a contract, and installation. I should be able to do that to get into the conditional status?
No, as Kren stated you need to submit an executed contract as part of the application to have funds reserved for your project. That applies to all residential projects and all non-residential projects < 10 kW (the two step process in the SGIP handbook).

However, if you ask, Tesla will offer you a contract amendment allowing you to cancel your contract without penalty if you don't get the SGIP rebate. So you can execute the Tesla contract contingent on the SGIP, and then submit your SGIP application with the executed Tesla contract.

Edit: at least they used to. Since there are reports now that Tesla is telling new customers that their SGIP capacity is exhausted, perhaps they no longer offer that contract amendment.

Cheers, Wayne
 
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I assume you are meaning to say you are trying to get SGIP step 2 even though you don't have your Tesla contract or installation date yet?
Yup thanks. I paid the deposit in October and am still waiting for a response from Tesla. They have never responded to any of my emails to their EnergyOrdersNA@ email so I guess it'll be months before I'll even get to the contract stage? Should I be calling their customer-support phone-line? I had thought that was only for Tesla-car related issues.

I was hoping to have all of the SGIP paperwork in-order, filled-out, and ready to submit by the time Tesla is ready so I don't miss Step 2 -- as reports are Tesla is capped out of Step 2. It sounds like I need to wait even longer.
 
Yup thanks. I paid the deposit in October and am still waiting for a response from Tesla. They have never responded to any of my emails to their EnergyOrdersNA@ email so I guess it'll be months before I'll even get to the contract stage? Should I be calling their customer-support phone-line? I had thought that was only for Tesla-car related issues.

I was hoping to have all of the SGIP paperwork in-order, filled-out, and ready to submit by the time Tesla is ready so I don't miss Step 2 -- as reports are Tesla is capped out of Step 2. It sounds like I need to wait even longer.
No, something is wrong. Tesla being capped out for step 2 should not be a reason why you haven't heard from them about your contract. You will though need to foot the entire bill for the install until your rebate funds are paid. Tesla will need to know you are installing and not expecting them to help you the SGIP (unless they can). I would suggest also not letting them know you plan on submitting on your own if at all possible.
 
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Well you certainly can do it. Then it is a matter of if you get caught by the IRS or not. (Does SGIP send data about paid incentives to the IRS to compare with ITC submissions?)

With the uncertainty of the SGIP program (for those of us waiting for Step 3 and beyond), I plan to claim the full ITC as I have no idea if I will even get the SGIP, and I probably won’t know until well after I have to file my taxes. I would hate to knock down my ITC rebate, and then not make it into SGIP at all, since that is very much up in the air right now.

Not sure how that will pan out if I do end up getting the SGIP later. Maybe having to file an amended return? I will have to ask my CPA when I do my taxes. Since the payouts for SGIP take about 18 months right now, there will be several tax years between the two credits. I know my SGIP rebate will get knocked down by the ITC I receive, so maybe that will account for the difference, who knows.
 
With the uncertainty of the SGIP program (for those of us waiting for Step 3 and beyond), I plan to claim the full ITC as I have no idea if I will even get the SGIP, and I probably won’t know until well after I have to file my taxes. I would hate to knock down my ITC rebate, and then not make it into SGIP at all, since that is very much up in the air right now.
Does it look like your system may be installed before the end of 2017? That would force a decision on the ITC! A more conservative option might be to assume an SGIP rebate, assuming you can calculate the exact, anticipated amount, then claim the ITC accordingly. Then, if you don't get an SGIP rebate, presumably you could go back and amend your return in which the ITC was claimed. But I'm not going to spend our accountant's time looking into this until it's necessary.

Tesla says that our re-submitted Powerwall permit is expected to be approved and returned by Dec. 7. We should then be able to get on the installation calendar. I'd love to have it done this year, but I'm not sure if that's possible given the backlog that others have reported.
 
With the uncertainty of the SGIP program (for those of us waiting for Step 3 and beyond), I plan to claim the full ITC as I have no idea if I will even get the SGIP, and I probably won’t know until well after I have to file my taxes. I would hate to knock down my ITC rebate, and then not make it into SGIP at all, since that is very much up in the air right now.

Not sure how that will pan out if I do end up getting the SGIP later. Maybe having to file an amended return? I will have to ask my CPA when I do my taxes. Since the payouts for SGIP take about 18 months right now, there will be several tax years between the two credits. I know my SGIP rebate will get knocked down by the ITC I receive, so maybe that will account for the difference, who knows.
For you guys that are having Tesla file your SGIP rebate, you might as well take advantage of the ITC. Tesla will fill out the rebate for you and supply all the documents to the SGIP so you just have to sit back relax and let them file in a way that allows you to take the iTC. But for us self-submitters, Filing the application in a way to receive the ITC triggers the requirement to supply documents that, without Tesla's help, are a bit difficult.
 
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No, something is wrong. Tesla being capped out for step 2 should not be a reason why you haven't heard from them about your contract.
Called their general sales number and got confirmation that Maria just backed them up, so they'll get back to me with survey/contract when they have stock (soon). I'm okay with getting the rebate years later.

On the current thread, I was planning to take the ITC (expecting installation in 2018), but sounds like I should more carefully calculate the SGIP rebate vs the PMP work. I am planning to 100% charge via PV. Projections by NREL's SAM says I'll more than satisfy the discharge requirements for a single PW2.

@Az_Rael for filing the SGIP rebate later v initially taking full ITC, interesting point. Amended filing may be the only way to go to beat the expiration deadlines. There's a 3 year window for amended filing, so it may work out.
 
Called their general sales number and got confirmation that Maria just backed them up, so they'll get back to me with survey/contract when they have stock (soon). I'm okay with getting the rebate years later.

On the current thread, I was planning to take the ITC (expecting installation in 2018), but sounds like I should more carefully calculate the SGIP rebate vs the PMP work. I am planning to 100% charge via PV. Projections by NREL's SAM says I'll more than satisfy the discharge requirements for a single PW2.

@Az_Rael for filing the SGIP rebate later v initially taking full ITC, interesting point. Amended filing may be the only way to go to beat the expiration deadlines. There's a 3 year window for amended filing, so it may work out.
Don't let us scare scare you with the PMP. It was a lot of work but not too bad. Especially if you are with SCE. They have a template out now and if you follow it very carefully, substituting your own system specific data when relevant, it should be okay.
 
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Does it look like your system may be installed before the end of 2017? That would force a decision on the ITC!

I don't know if it will. So I may have more time to see if I made it into Step 3 or not if my install bleeds into Jan. Waiting on my 2nd round of permits after Tesla induced corrections, about to call the city for status. Apparently the dude who works plan check only works from 4:30-5:30PM each day. Which is... awesome.
 
While I'm not an accountant, your logic as to the ITC seems sound. I'm of the same opinion. That said, if I rightly recall, there are posts upthread which assert that it's possible to claim the ITC based on the full cost while simultaneously receiving the full SGIP rebate.

I agree that if the ITC isn't worth a great deal, then it's probably not worth claiming. With no ITC requirements to worry about, we could charge the Powerwalls from the grid during "super off peak" hours, if supported by Tesla, and get the maximum possible economic benefit from TOU load shifting and solar PV NEM credits. Skipping the ITC could also give us the freedom to "top off" the Powerwalls from the grid whenever there's a big snowstorm up here in the mountains that threatens to simultaneously knock out our grid power and bury our solar panels. (That said, "snow" seems like a foreign concept right now, as it's already December and we haven't seen a single flake yet.)

With continued growth in solar PV deployments, I expect that the late morning hours will eventually have to be designated as "super off peak", at least during Spring. That would push homeowners like us to charge our batteries during those hours instead of exporting our solar production.

My "Self-Generation Incentive Program Residential Energy Storage Eligibility Affidavit" document which I signed included a line "Taking Federal Investment Tax Credits (ITC): No.

As an affidavit, I think that if you then take the ITC, you could be found at fault (if caught).

Proposed System Information Equipment Technology: Electrochemical Storage System
Manufacturer: Tesla
System Model: 110856700C
Other selfgeneration or storage equipment onsite?
Charged at least 75% from renewables? Yes
Total Rated Capacity (kW): 10
Total Energy Storage Capacity (kWh): 27
Discharge Hours Duration: 2.7

Project Finance Total Eligible Project Cost (TEPC): $15,406.75
Ineligible Project Cost:
Taking Federal Investment Tax Credits (ITC): No
ITC as a % of TEPC: %
Approved California Manufacturer Equipment: false

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, it seems there are some people planning to charge their batteries at night when power costs are low and discharge it during the day which is not allowed to claim the 30% ITC. That is why the IRS instituted the 75% rule. An article at gosolar.com seems to confirm this.

"Additionally, what’s labeled by the IRS as "dual use property" is the ability to charge the battery from the grid
when rates are low, and discharge when rates are high. According to the IRS this is not what the 30% ITC was
meant for; the ITC was meant to facilitate the adoption of clean energy (such as solar), and in the case of
batteries to store it for later use. Not to arbitrage utility rates (buy low, sell high). According to Renewable
Energy World Magazine there is a so-called "75% Cliff" whereby if the consumer charges the battery with less
than 75% renewable energy, then the battery is not eligible for the tax credit. Above 75% the battery system is
eligible for the ITC based on the percentage of renewable energy that is charging the battery system. So if
you charge your battery with 90% solar electricity and 10% from the grid, then you are eligible to claim 90% of
your 30% ITC for the cost of those storage components. This ruling applies over the first five year period of
ownership, after which point dual use charging would not affect the tax credit rate..."
 
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It's interesting that your SGIP paperwork, quoted below, indicates "Yes" for "Charged at least 75% from renewables" but you're not claiming the ITC. In terms of SGIP, I wonder if there is any real benefit to saying you'll charge the batteries from renewables.

Supposing the ITC isn't a factor, my primary motivation to charge the Powerwalls from PV would be to help avoid scenarios where there's more overall renewable generation than the grid can reasonably handle, in which case some wholesale solar and wind generation generally has to be curtailed. This is more of an issue in early and mid Spring, in late morning and midday, when there's ample sunlight but not much demand for air conditioning. The rest of the year, though, if not claiming the ITC, I see no real downside to charging from the grid when rates are lowest. Our clean PV generation would end up being consumed by our neighbors, thus offsetting our use of dirtier grid energy to charge the Powerwalls at night.

Even if charging Powerwalls from the grid during "super off peak" hours, there's still a real benefit to the grid in that the Powerwalls should mostly eliminate the use of "peak" electricity during the evening hours, when fossil-powered plants have to ramp up quickly as solar generation drops off.

My "Self-Generation Incentive Program Residential Energy Storage Eligibility Affidavit" document which I signed included a line "Taking Federal Investment Tax Credits (ITC): No.

As an affidavit, I think that if you then take the ITC, you could be found at fault (if caught).

Proposed System Information Equipment Technology: Electrochemical Storage System
Manufacturer: Tesla
System Model: 110856700C
Other selfgeneration or storage equipment onsite?
Charged at least 75% from renewables? Yes
Total Rated Capacity (kW): 10
Total Energy Storage Capacity (kWh): 27
Discharge Hours Duration: 2.7

Project Finance Total Eligible Project Cost (TEPC): $15,406.75
Ineligible Project Cost:
Taking Federal Investment Tax Credits (ITC): No
ITC as a % of TEPC: %
Approved California Manufacturer Equipment: false
 
It's interesting that your SGIP paperwork, quoted below, indicates "Yes" for "Charged at least 75% from renewables" but you're not claiming the ITC. In terms of SGIP, I wonder if there is any real benefit to saying you'll charge the batteries from renewables.

Supposing the ITC isn't a factor, my primary motivation to charge the Powerwalls from PV would be to help avoid scenarios where there's more overall renewable generation than the grid can reasonably handle, in which case some wholesale solar and wind generation generally has to be curtailed. This is more of an issue in early and mid Spring, in late morning and midday, when there's ample sunlight but not much demand for air conditioning. The rest of the year, though, if not claiming the ITC, I see no real downside to charging from the grid when rates are lowest. Our clean PV generation would end up being consumed by our neighbors, thus offsetting our use of dirtier grid energy to charge the Powerwalls at night.

Even if charging Powerwalls from the grid during "super off peak" hours, there's still a real benefit to the grid in that the Powerwalls should mostly eliminate the use of "peak" electricity during the evening hours, when fossil-powered plants have to ramp up quickly as solar generation drops off.

In the SGIP 2017 Handbook, I find the following that I think answers your question.

5.3.4 Paired with On-site Renewables To be considered paired with and charging from on-site renewables, energy storage systems must either be claiming the Investment Tax Credit (ITC) or, if not claiming the ITC, charge a minimum of 75% from the on-site renewable generator.

I also found further down this.

Systems Pairing with On-site Renewable Generators:
Energy storage systems paired with on-site renewable generators must provide a description of:
• The anticipated charge and discharge schedule of the system demonstrating that the system complies with ITC operational
requirements or, for projects not claiming the ITC, will be charged at least 75% from renewables;
• The metering that will be used to verify that the system is being charged from renewables;
• The ability to provide data to verify operation in the event of an audit.

So, it looks like Tesla (or whoever) will be able to monitor your system to make sure you are in compliance with your system.
 
In the SGIP 2017 Handbook, I find the following that I think answers your question.

5.3.4 Paired with On-site Renewables To be considered paired with and charging from on-site renewables, energy storage systems must either be claiming the Investment Tax Credit (ITC) or, if not claiming the ITC, charge a minimum of 75% from the on-site renewable generator.
Thanks. That's relevant to my question, but what I really wanted to pin down is whether it might make sense for a homeowner with solar panels to skip the ITC and allow for charging the Powerwalls from the grid. I'm aware that some homeowners who don't own solar panels are expecting SGIP rebates on their Powerwalls, and they'll obviously be charging from the grid.

It looks like the only benefit, with respect to an SGIP application, of committing that the Powerwalls will charge at least 75% from on-site PV is that this may increase the priority of one's application, as given below. However, for a residential application, I'm not sure if this really matters, practically speaking. In SCE territory, for small residential customers using anyone other than Tesla as their Developer, Step 2 currently applies and the funding cap has not yet been met. (I'm not sure how Tesla plans to address this for their Step 3 applicants.) Does anyone have a different interpretation?

2.3.2.1 Priority Projects

The following energy storage projects shall have priority in the SGIP lottery process:

  • - Energy storage projects located within the service territory of Los Angeles Department of Water and Power.10

  • - Energy storage projects located within the West Los Angeles Local Reliability Area of Southern California Edison’s service territory.

  • - Energy storage systems paired with an on-site renewable generator and claiming the Investment Tax Credit (ITC) or, if not claiming the ITC, charging a minimum of 75% from the on-site renewable generator.

    Energy storage projects that meet more than one criterion shall be given the highest priority. A lottery will be held for the projects in the priority or non-priority category that exceeds available funding in the active step.
 
Thanks. That's relevant to my question, but what I really wanted to pin down is whether it might make sense for a homeowner with solar panels to skip the ITC and allow for charging the Powerwalls from the grid. I'm aware that some homeowners who don't own solar panels are expecting SGIP rebates on their Powerwalls, and they'll obviously be charging from the grid.

It looks like the only benefit, with respect to an SGIP application, of committing that the Powerwalls will charge at least 75% from on-site PV is that this may increase the priority of one's application, as given below. However, for a residential application, I'm not sure if this really matters, practically speaking. In SCE territory, for small residential customers using anyone other than Tesla as their Developer, Step 2 currently applies and the funding cap has not yet been met. (I'm not sure how Tesla plans to address this for their Step 3 applicants.) Does anyone have a different interpretation?

I was in touch with the SCE program manager before the SGIP re-opened. A person without solar can get a Powerwall 2 and participate in the SGIP program. Here is what the program manager told me:

"It qualifies for an incentive depending how the battery will be utilized. If the battery is strictly a backup system to discharge only when electric service goes out, then it is not eligible for a SGIP rebate. Backup systems are not eligible in the program.

If the system is to be used to offset onsite peak electric demand then, yes it is eligible.

The SGIP is currently going through some program modifications. The Program Administrators recently filed an Advice Letter to the CPUC incorporating the changes to the SGIP Handbook based on Decision 16-06-055.

One of the proposed changes is that residential energy storage systems whether they are on time-of-use rates, dynamic rates, or participate in the wholesale market are required to discharge a minimum of 52 discharges per year. These do not have to be 52 100% depth of discharges, but the cumulative kWh discharged at the end of the year must total the equivalent of 52 full discharges of the SGIP-incentivized energy capacity. If your system can meet this criteria, then it is eligible for a SGIP rebate."

Not sure if this helps any
 
It looks like the only benefit, with respect to an SGIP application, of committing that the Powerwalls will charge at least 75% from on-site PV is that this may increase the priority of one's application
That's my interpretation as well. So it would have helped those applying for Step 1, as there was a lottery for Step1. But now that the application rate has slowed down and it doesn't seem likely there will be another lottery, I don't see any SGIP benefit to applying as paired storage.

Cheers, Wayne
 
That's my interpretation as well. So it would have helped those applying for Step 1, as there was a lottery for Step1. But now that the application rate has slowed down and it doesn't seem likely there will be another lottery, I don't see any SGIP benefit to applying as paired storage.

Cheers, Wayne

The perceived requirement for 75% with paired stored is not a requirement to obtain state funds. The application is steering rate payers to accomplish two objectives: qualifying for both state and federal perks. It is the hope that BOTH the incentive and tax credits TOGETHER make the mission of SGIP affordable, attractive, and of good value.
 
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My "Self-Generation Incentive Program Residential Energy Storage Eligibility Affidavit" document which I signed included a line "Taking Federal Investment Tax Credits (ITC): No.

As an affidavit, I think that if you then take the ITC, you could be found at fault (if caught).

Proposed System Information Equipment Technology: Electrochemical Storage System
Manufacturer: Tesla
System Model: 110856700C
Other selfgeneration or storage equipment onsite?
Charged at least 75% from renewables? Yes
Total Rated Capacity (kW): 10
Total Energy Storage Capacity (kWh): 27
Discharge Hours Duration: 2.7

"

The "taking federal investment tax credit" checkbox has no bearing in the incentive calculations for small residential (10kw or less) systems. (Enter different permutations into the calculator and see for yourself.) / I also see no problem claiming & taking both ITC & SGIP funds. See references in forum to 2016 US Code.
 
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