Based on report of EV fires, restarts in wrecking yards, etc. , I gather a Li-Ion battery fire is more difficult to extinguish. Also, requires large volumes of water to cool down the battery pack. And are more like to flare up later.
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Powerwall installation not allowed inside garage in Dallas
- Thread starter CrazyRabbit
- Start date
Say they were on fire, how would you put them out though?
Short of ripping them off the wall and putting them in a bathtub, there isn't much you can do.
Agreed that gas has much more energy especially if it becomes airborne vapor.
let them burn out... doesn't the ford lightning have a +150kwh battery. yet i can park that in my garage and charge it... also can use it vehicle to grid for up to 30 days....
if this is a real threat, then we need to regulating vehicles and where they can be parked. does it scare you to have 300 ford lightnings parked in the garage below your residences (large condo/appartment building)...
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People see a few of these videos and they'll be concerned. See enough EV battery fires to know they are a pain to put out and have to just burn out before they die.
Oh, the regulations are coming, don't worry. In the meantime, we deal with the codes that were written 4 years ago.
I think it is a mistake to think that regulations are logical and data driven. They tend to be written by committee...
I can remember three government agencies claiming jurisdiction over a process that I was involved in, with three mutually exclusive sets of regulations. You had to make a choice, and know that one or more of the other agencies were going to write you up for it when they inspected.
ESS are an emerging area, and I suspect it will be a long time before the changes in the codes and regulations calm down. I think it is in the nature of the beast for some AHJ being more conservative and others less so, and then in a decade or two, best practices emerge.
All the best,
BG
I can remember three government agencies claiming jurisdiction over a process that I was involved in, with three mutually exclusive sets of regulations. You had to make a choice, and know that one or more of the other agencies were going to write you up for it when they inspected.
ESS are an emerging area, and I suspect it will be a long time before the changes in the codes and regulations calm down. I think it is in the nature of the beast for some AHJ being more conservative and others less so, and then in a decade or two, best practices emerge.
All the best,
BG
I agree with this take. Often the numbers generated "Sound Good" and so become code with little to no data-driven justification except consensus.
To my understanding, not a single UL 9540 Listed ESS has been involved in an incident where there was an injury or loss of human life. Granted, the standard is pretty new so that isn't saying much. What it is saying is that these systems are designed and tested with safeguards to prevent abuse. It certainly doesn't help that there is also a UL 9540A test standard (not listing) and this endlessly confuses people. Good thing the UL 9540 standard is going through a massive rewrite to address the input from all stakeholders..
By comparison, many cheap E-Bike and Scooters/hoverboards have relatively dumb chargers. It doesn't take much of the wrong kind of abuse to start a fire which might be pretty significant even from a smallish battery if it finds fuel.
Big picture: ESS / EV fires are rare. However, as neither ESS nor EVs are particularly common, I would argue that it is not yet determined if the risk is high medium or low. It is the old math question of what is zero divided by zero.
To me, the fire issue isn't so much the energy stored in the battery, it is everything else. These are hot, difficult to extinguish fires, which to me raise the issue of ok, what happens while they burn? How do you get humans to safety sufficiently quickly and how do you minimize the peripheral damage? I'm not a fire fighter and I don't play one on TV, but the difficulties of EV fires and ESS fires seem to be much more like industrial chemical fires or aircraft fires in terms of degree of difficulty, as well as the staggeringly large amounts of water or foam required to limit the spread of the fire. There are a fair number of fire videos out there, either for UL testing, or fire fighting training, and these fires don't behave like typical home or vehicle fires.
i.e. your EV catches fire in the garage where it was charging and is a total loss in thirty seconds, then what? Walk away from the house while that burns down to the foundation? How long until the fire department arrives and gets water onto the EV fire and house? How much water is really available to keep things cool? I know of a fire chief trying to change fire fighting tactics to using liquid carbon dioxide. As I understand his argument, once you know the home is evacuated, CO2 is much faster to achieve fire suppression and cool down, with less damage. I am not saying that I think he will prevail, but it is indicative of an out of the box attempt to solve some of the issues.
Lots of learning and discovery is going on.
Personally, I am coming around to the view that outdoor EV charging has some distinct positives, and I can see the advantages of having the batteries attached to something other than the house.
All the best,
BG
seems all tesla needs to do is mark "for use in residential dwelling units" and pass the required testing... which basically means the battery cells cannot be forced into thermal runaway or produce flammable gases.
Your interpretation is a common misunderstanding of the code.
In the code making community this is known as the "Unicorn Mark" because it theoretically exists but nobody has ever seen one.
Practically if you could make a high capacity Lithium battery NEVER vent flammable gasses, or go into thermal runaway, you would be a billionaire. This portion of the code in being re-writen to be more clear as well.
EVs are new and some are having issues. Here is BMWs issues. And Ford is nerfing the MachE to prevent battery contactors from failing
another one here
www.notebookcheck.net
Jaguar I-Pace burns down after charging overnight in another scary EV fire incident
The brave owner of the British luxury car managed to remove the heavily smoking EV from his garage in order to protect his house from the flames. Purportedly, this is the fourth Jaguar I-Pace that has caught fire under these kind of circumstances.
www.notebookcheck.net
Alright TMC-smarty-mc-smarties... help me answer this one...
If your EV is parked in your garage and catches on fire... burning down your house... does the summation of the insurance coverage on both the home insurance and the automobile property insurance stack on top of each other?
That is, if you had a $0.5mm policy on your house (haha in California? talk about a fake example) and a $0.1mm property coverage on your car, would that provide $0.6mm to rebuild your house?
Or would the fire need to be proven to be caused by the parked car for the car insurance to then throw in the $0.1mm?
So if a fault of the wall charger causes the car to catch on fire, then they'd say only the home insurance acts by itself since the car wasn't actually the thing responsible for the property damage?
PS, I need to increase my home insurance coverage since inflation sucks.
If your EV is parked in your garage and catches on fire... burning down your house... does the summation of the insurance coverage on both the home insurance and the automobile property insurance stack on top of each other?
That is, if you had a $0.5mm policy on your house (haha in California? talk about a fake example) and a $0.1mm property coverage on your car, would that provide $0.6mm to rebuild your house?
Or would the fire need to be proven to be caused by the parked car for the car insurance to then throw in the $0.1mm?
So if a fault of the wall charger causes the car to catch on fire, then they'd say only the home insurance acts by itself since the car wasn't actually the thing responsible for the property damage?
PS, I need to increase my home insurance coverage since inflation sucks.
Latest communication from Tesla:
We sent you the following email yesterday:
Hi Eric,
It turns out we cannot install your Powerwall's in the garage. Please see note below from the Installation Supervisor and Inspection Coordinator:
The issue is the job will never pass inspection. We are no longer allowed to stack the Powerwall's which will now require a significant amount of space. We are looking at 41' of linear space needed for the Powerwall's. 21' of empty space between and 20' for the Powerwall's themselves.
A bollard is also required for each Powerwall if its within vehicle range. Additionally, an interconnected heat detector is also required.
We sent you the following email yesterday:
Hi Eric,
It turns out we cannot install your Powerwall's in the garage. Please see note below from the Installation Supervisor and Inspection Coordinator:
The issue is the job will never pass inspection. We are no longer allowed to stack the Powerwall's which will now require a significant amount of space. We are looking at 41' of linear space needed for the Powerwall's. 21' of empty space between and 20' for the Powerwall's themselves.
A bollard is also required for each Powerwall if its within vehicle range. Additionally, an interconnected heat detector is also required.
Good news:
“Hi Eric, good news. We heard from the Senior Inspector of Fort Worth. They are going to allow us to stack. You will still need bollards in front of your Powerwall's and we will also need you to install a interconnected heat detector in your garage prior to us scheduling installation. As long as that is acceptable, we can redesign for garage install. Please confirm.”
“Hi Eric, good news. We heard from the Senior Inspector of Fort Worth. They are going to allow us to stack. You will still need bollards in front of your Powerwall's and we will also need you to install a interconnected heat detector in your garage prior to us scheduling installation. As long as that is acceptable, we can redesign for garage install. Please confirm.”
Rabbit is going to have the safest Powerwall installation ever! Lol make sure your disconnects are within line of sight too. I can’t wait to see 8x blade disconnects next to 8x Powerwalls.
But are they allowing you to break quantity maximums and put all 8 in the garage?
I have site visit on the 20th, I will find out then.
I hope so, as I’m installing mini split in garage to keep them cool.
I hope so, as I’m installing mini split in garage to keep them cool.
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