Prediction: Coal has fallen. Nuclear is next then Oil.

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Pros and cons of centralized and distributed systems, but would add that residential rooftop solar is excellent land management.

Sometimes it doesn't matter much, especially in productive countries like the USA where there's plenty of land.
Rooftop solar is currently normally labor intensive, which requires more people, who require more land to feed.

There are some synergies with putting solar on farmland.. The shading or partial shading can be a positive.

Agrivoltaic - Wikipedia

 

[SageBrush]

Sometimes it doesn't matter much, especially in productive countries like the USA where there's plenty of land.

"Worthless" land does not usually have infrastructure

Rooftop solar is currently normally labor intensive

It can be 2-3 unskilled people working 1/2 a weekend. Is that your version of 'labor intensive' ?

 

[ggies07]

This central vs decentral argument is going to be decided by economics but just for the sake of jawing, I'll point out that what the decentralized version gains in resiliency, it gives up in flexibility. This occurs because each transformer acts a a gatekeeper and island. I have not read studies yet but I'm not going to be surprised if the decentral version also proves to be inefficient.

Tomorrow's Power Grid Will Be Autonomous

The concept and core technology for the autonomous energy grid are being developed by our team at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, in Golden, Colo. Since 2018, NREL and local utility Holy Cross Energy have been putting the concept into practice, starting with the construction of the first four houses in Basalt Vista. Each home has an 8-kilowatt rooftop PV system with lithium iron phosphate storage batteries, as well as energy-efficient, all-electric heating, cooling, water heaters, and appliances. All of those assets are monitored and can be controlled by the AEG. So far, average utility bills have been about 85 percent lower than typical electric bills for Colorado.

The result is that energy generated within an AEG is used more efficiently—it’s either consumed immediately or stored. Over time, the operator will have to invest less in building, operating, and maintaining larger generators—including costly “peaker” plants that are used only when demand is unusually high.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

"Worthless" land does not usually have infrastructure

It doesn't matter as long as you can build it cheaply. The panels are going to last 25 years, and the infrastructure will last longer.

Utility-scale solar has to pay for the land, yet it's still much cheaper than rooftop, even in countries that do rooftop properly.

It can be 2-3 unskilled people working 1/2 a weekend. Is that your version of 'labor intensive' ?

Yes.

Imagine two workers installing panels at a solar farm for a day. You think they'd only get 6kW installed?

 

[SageBrush]

Utility-scale solar has to pay for the land, yet it's still much cheaper than rooftop, even in countries that do rooftop properly.

I'm not at all sure that is correct, e.g. in Australia
Commercial solar system prices Archives | Solar Choice

Easy, Peasy, DIY rooftop PV is around $.7 - $1.0 a watt in the USA
But you might as well call installers Down Under .. ( in AUD)

 

[SageBrush]

Tomorrow's Power Grid Will Be Autonomous

You may wish to review the subsidies involved in that development before you get too giddy.

 

[mspohr]

You may wish to review the subsidies involved in that development before you get too giddy.

What subsidies?

 

[SageBrush]

What subsidies?

The list is on their website

The more prominent items were
Free land
Free roads

IIRC it added up to ~ $300,000 per home ... for 'affordable' housing

 

[mspohr]

The list is on their website

The more prominent items were
Free land
Free roads

IIRC it added up to ~ $300,000 per home ... for 'affordable' housing

Sorry, I'm confused. Which/what project are you talking about?
I'm looking at Holy Cross Energy and NREL.

 

[SageBrush]

Sorry, I'm confused. Which/what project are you talking about?
I'm looking at Holy Cross Energy and NREL.

Basalt vista affordable housing project | Holy Cross Energy

 

[mspohr]

Basalt vista affordable housing project | Holy Cross Energy

Thanks! Very interesting project. Hopefully will show the valve of distributed energy.

 

[mspohr]

LA Times: Solar & batteries to the rescue! | Solar Rights Alliance

California is scrambling to avoid blackouts. Your refrigerator could help

1) When rooftop solar is paired with a battery, the extra solar energy gets stored in the garage and used when the sun goes down, or during a power outage.
2) Solar with battery storage isn't just good for the individual household that owns the battery. People with solar and batteries can help their community keep the lights on when the grid goes down.
3) "Virtual Power Plants" string together a little bit of the extra energy from numerous solar-powered batteries. That becomes a lot of local energy, which is then shared with the community. This reduces the need to use energy from far-off locations.
4) Virtual Power Plants aren't some futuristic thing. They're getting built right now, but only at a small scale.

 

[mspohr]

How Big Utilities are Impeding Clean Energy, and What We Can Do About It

https://cdn.ilsr.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SLPG_Electricity.pdf

The solution to concentration lies in embracing decentralized ownership and generation. Acting individually or collectively, we have a new opportunity to bypass concentrated power and build wealth by using local solar energy to power our lives. This report describes how state and local policy solutions can foster those community-based clean energy solutions.

 

[DigAdrenaline]

LA Times: Solar & batteries to the rescue! | Solar Rights Alliance

California is scrambling to avoid blackouts. Your refrigerator could help

1) When rooftop solar is paired with a battery, the extra solar energy gets stored in the garage and used when the sun goes down, or during a power outage.
2) Solar with battery storage isn't just good for the individual household that owns the battery. People with solar and batteries can help their community keep the lights on when the grid goes down.
3) "Virtual Power Plants" string together a little bit of the extra energy from numerous solar-powered batteries. That becomes a lot of local energy, which is then shared with the community. This reduces the need to use energy from far-off locations.
4) Virtual Power Plants aren't some futuristic thing. They're getting built right now, but only at a small scale.

And with 100kwh of power storage in each of my cars, batteries are easy too.

if you REALLY want to look forward, imagine a fleet of autonomous cars that could work together to resolve an outage or emergency by driving themselves to the location of the need during periods of time when they weren’t ferrying passengers. You could be paid both as a robo taxi and as a portable power supply.

There’s a cool thought.

 

[nativewolf]

How Big Utilities are Impeding Clean Energy, and What We Can Do About It

https://cdn.ilsr.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SLPG_Electricity.pdf

The solution to concentration lies in embracing decentralized ownership and generation. Acting individually or collectively, we have a new opportunity to bypass concentrated power and build wealth by using local solar energy to power our lives. This report describes how state and local policy solutions can foster those community-based clean energy solutions.

That's right decentralized but connected so that if you need some power and I have some extra I can just send it over to you. Instead of a utility we'll just have some wires connecting all the homes and have some people that will keep it all running and operating smoothly. ....hmmm.....do they uh...do they do that already?

 

[nativewolf]

Ok I was trying to be funny but here's some good news. Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

 

[TheTalkingMule]

How Big Utilities are Impeding Clean Energy, and What We Can Do About It

https://cdn.ilsr.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/SLPG_Electricity.pdf

The solution to concentration lies in embracing decentralized ownership and generation. Acting individually or collectively, we have a new opportunity to bypass concentrated power and build wealth by using local solar energy to power our lives. This report describes how state and local policy solutions can foster those community-based clean energy solutions.

Pennsylvania is a fracking state with a rats nest legislature likely to do anything their fossil benefactors wish. Back around 2015/16 when SolarCity was having issues with Warren Buffet's NVEnergy in Nevada, I assumed we'd quickly see such nonsense spread to PA. They tried, but were quickly rebuffed and net metering persisted however tentatively.

Then in 2017 the City of Philadelphia went out on a limb with a massive solar PPA to source 22% of city build's demand from local solar. They also started a Solarize Philly program to help make residential solar easier for Philadelphians to procure. Seems like a small thing to do, but by putting their stamp of support on residential solar they effectively shielded homeowners from having their net metering pulled by the PA legislature.

My point is, if you have a state that's supportive of renewables you can start there. But even if you don't, local level action can provide many of the same benefits, freedoms, and protections.

Community solar isn't available in PA.....yet. But it should be within 2021, and then the dam breaks IMO. Lotsa unused farmland in impoverished Central PA.

 

[SageBrush]

I sent the company a contact me message, and I think I will give them a call. A hill near my home might just be a very nice fit.

@mspohr

I had a very nice conversation with Patrick

Patrick J. Fleming
Director of Operations
PowerField Energy Inc.
703.623.9462 (c)
www.powerfieldenergy.com

The company is happy to work with home owners. Here are some of the details most people would ask about:

• Depending on config, between 1-2 containers ("buckets") per panel: ~ 1 per panel if buckets are level; 2 if not
• $80 per bucket
• One example of shipping: OH to CA $1600 for 120 buckets
• Permit documents provided for a vanilla installation (I think that mostly means level ground)

I'm excited; this is a fine and not expensive solution for people with the right land. It also appeals to my DIY character. This is going to be my plan 'B' if PV on my roof cannot be done or is too expensive. I am going to create a thread for this product for people to ask questions and give answers, and I asked Patrick to peek at the thread as warranted to provide vendor input.

New thread: PowerFields: A Ballasted Ground PV Solution

 

[mspohr]

@mspohr

I had a very nice conversation with Patrick

Patrick J. Fleming
Director of Operations
PowerField Energy Inc.
703.623.9462 (c)
www.powerfieldenergy.com

The company is happy to work with home owners. Here are some of the details most people would ask about:

• Depending on config, between 1-2 containers ("buckets") per panel: ~ 1 per panel if buckets are level; 2 if not
• $80 per bucket
• One example of shipping: OH to CA $1600 for 120 buckets
• Permit documents provided for a vanilla installation (I think that mostly means level ground)

I'm excited; this is a fine and not expensive solution for people with the right land. It also appeals to my DIY character. This is going to be my plan 'B' if PV on my roof cannot be done or is too expensive. I am going to create a thread for this product for people to ask questions and give answers, and I asked Patrick to peek at the thread as warranted to provide vendor input.

New thread: PowerFields: A Ballasted Ground PV Solution

Thanks for this...
I've also been talking with Patrick. He's very responsive and knowledgeable. We're working on configuring a system for my site. A few problems: the panels I've purchased are too wide for the buckets... I'll need to purchase new panels (but I can use the old ones at my office building). The building department is skeptical since they haven't seen this before. I need to get snow load and wind calcs. Patrick is helping with this and I hope we can get approval.

 

[ReddyLeaf]

New South Wales Will Host New 700 MW/2800 MWh Battery Storage Installation
Crazy big batteries will be going into Australia, up to 7000MW mentioned.

Origin Energy is an Australian energy producer that operates that nation’s largest coal fired generating station, the 2.9 MW Eraring facility located south of the port city of Newcastle. It announced this week it is seeking proposals to build a 700 MW/2800 MWh battery on the grounds of the Eraring power plant, which is scheduled to close in 2032.