The engineer who thought it was a good idea to have water drain onto a $20k battery and cause corrosion problems w/ the pack I hope no longer works for Tesla. We had a joke at my previous engineering job, "never give a programmer a screwdriver". This is case in point. You can easily see the corrosion and how damage to the pack seal could happen over time; plus the moisture can eventually get into the penthouse area and damage the bms - damaged bms = battery replacement in most cases unless wk057 is the tech.
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Vendor Preventative Maintenance regarding Battery Failures in early Model S vehicles (2012-2014)
- Thread starter wk057
- Start date
Jason, I want to personally thank you for bringing these issues to our attention. After seeing the pictures of the damage to the penthouse bolts/screws and water ingress there from another poster here today, I think just extending the drain line for those of us affected may very well add years to the pack, even if there was some previous issues. Obviously there is a point where enough corrosion elsewhere may damage the bms and it's battery swap time, but the A/C evap line problem is such a careless oversight. It's poor engineering to save a few bucks on a discharge hose to destroy countless batteries within the warranty timeframe alone. The cheap always comes out expensive.Continuing some thoughts:
A core issue with this service is that it's just not going to be practical for all of the people who want or need it to get their vehicles to 057 for service, so there's going to definitely need to be a way to do this that's more local to the customers. Combine that with tech throughput (we could probably do 5 of these per day with a dedicated tech pair), and to even address 1% of the potential ~70,000 vehicles in this group, would take years.
So I've put in some work on a plan to be able to do this using... well, let's just say that if it's possible to pull off, there might be able to be an 057 Battery Preventative Maintenance Crew World Tour at some point that you could sign up for.But, not sure how practical it would really be. Would have to get a lot of signups pretty far in advance to make it possible... although I guess that's not completely out of the realm of possibilities. A hundred+ people onboard would probably make it possible for the US.
Working with third party shops is tricky, with liability and logistical issues. For example, most shops are just not equipped to do battery work. We've attempted a few remote services for battery replacement work in the past, and it's just too much of a headache. While this maintenance program would certainly be less involved than a full battery replacement, it still involves removing the battery pack from the car and reinstalling it properly.
Another possibility would be to sell a DIY kit + instructions... then can either do it yourself or find a competent shop. I'm not sure I like this idea, though, since it likely would add significant costs all around.
I would think one of the reasons for such poor Tesla service is because the techs who see these issues repeatedly know the company just does not care to actually fix anything - the techs see the same drive unit failures every 25-50k miles on the refurbished units -- yes, even Q versions on the large DU, probably the same for refurbished battery packs every few years as documented by many on these forums here - refurbs may not last more than 24-36 months. I don't think I could work for a company that simply ignored problems - they end up destroying the morale of the employees- many of those employees probably no longer believe Tesla makes a quality vehicle. If you have employees who do not believe in your product, it's just a paycheck for them and they will hate their job at some point when having to lie to customers about what they see on a daily basis.
On another note, i would think keeping track of the isolation resistance (if it's on the canbus) would be a good way for owners to purchase a used Tesla and determine if the pack possibly has problems - water ingress if really a huge saturated pack should show less resistance as the coolant/water is conductive. I'm not sure if that can be had w/ some of the can adapters. I saw a diagnostic w/ a rav4 owner (Johan @ DIY Tesla Drive Unit Repair YT channel) using a Tesla drive unit needed over 4k ohms of isolation resistance after the rebuild, if below this there are likely problems w/ the battery or DU. For owners who purchase used Tesla's, getting this information would be key to learning if the battery is already 90% dead or the DU is already on the verge of complete failure and avoid a horrid financial $20k mistake... My $.02...
TSB document for isolation faults on 2013 Tesla Model S...
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I feel like that engineer must have left in 2014. It's probably the same engineer that decided to put the 12V battery where it is on the pre-2015 cars, put the HV fuse access in an inaccessible place on the pre-2015 packs, put the front lower control arm bolts in in a way where they can only be removed after removing the battery pack... I could go on.
As for the isolation side of things, yes an isolation issue would likely indicate moisture intrusion, but by the time it's detectable it's wayyyyy too late. Isolation values will generally remain normal until the moisture condenses and bridges HV weakly to the chassis... the isolation resistance instantly falls off a cliff. So, unfortunately not a useful tool for early detection.
AlphaTango11
Member
As usual, thank you for being such an informative and contributory resource about these packs.
My P85D (660XX) was made in late December and the AC condensation line definitely dumps directly onto the pack fuse cover (genius ideas all around, it seems).
It sounds to me like the umbrella valves (of which there are a stupid amount of) deteriorate and need to be replaced (maybe including better side skis as well?). In theory these seem to be fairly simple to replace once the pack is out (not as simple) and once the side skis are removed, but I've never done any. I would certainly be a buyer of a DIY kit if this is the case.
Of course, if there's too much moisture in the pack already, that takes things out of DIY territory very quickly, but should be rare (for now).
Side note: is there any reason not to tape/secure a bunch of desiccant bags in the pack itself during this repair? I guess they'll get saturated eventually since these packs are never 100% sealed (especially so with failing vents and other issues), but surely it would help remove some moisture from the air in the pack for a while?
Anyway, definitely going to keep an eye on any updates you have about this. Thanks again.
My P85D (660XX) was made in late December and the AC condensation line definitely dumps directly onto the pack fuse cover (genius ideas all around, it seems).
It sounds to me like the umbrella valves (of which there are a stupid amount of) deteriorate and need to be replaced (maybe including better side skis as well?). In theory these seem to be fairly simple to replace once the pack is out (not as simple) and once the side skis are removed, but I've never done any. I would certainly be a buyer of a DIY kit if this is the case.
Of course, if there's too much moisture in the pack already, that takes things out of DIY territory very quickly, but should be rare (for now).
Side note: is there any reason not to tape/secure a bunch of desiccant bags in the pack itself during this repair? I guess they'll get saturated eventually since these packs are never 100% sealed (especially so with failing vents and other issues), but surely it would help remove some moisture from the air in the pack for a while?
Anyway, definitely going to keep an eye on any updates you have about this. Thanks again.
Is this the same thing as the "Reseal HV battery" that Tesla has been doing for some older cars, free of charge? See this topic:
NewbyMaybe
Newby1Kenowby
I'll be visiting an independent tech today. Making an appointment for this issue.
Hopefully the slow charging every other day has been drying out the pack.
I've been through some big puddles.
Hopefully the slow charging every other day has been drying out the pack.
I've been through some big puddles.
I wonder if we can get our supercharger speeds back again.
We were told the lower charge speeds were to protect the battery/extend longevity. However it seems it's moisture that is killing the packs, not the cells getting stressed.
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So -- I've changed air shocks in my audi allroad and changed a cam / lifters in my old volvo; but weirdly seem intimidated by this. I guess I'm getting old and lame.
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to pull out the frunk, then look around for what's obviously the AC condensate drain line, get a hose from the hardware store down the street and shove it over the top of this and run it to somewhere clear of the battery and call it a day?
And maybe replace the cabin air filter while I'm in there? (I bet I'll see 2 miles of added range with a clean air filter...)
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And maybe replace the cabin air filter while I'm in there? (I bet I'll see 2 miles of added range with a clean air filter...)
My car was built in Feb. 2015. The VIN# is 71xxx. I also have a new 1014116-00-C pack which I assume is an upgraded pack regarding moisture intake prevention. My new battery install invoice from a few months ago does not refer to any AC condensate drain line rerouting as far as I can see.
Not sure what to make of it? That my car AC condensate drain line has a better design to divert the drainage away from the top of the pack OR my car’s AC condensate drain line design is the same as the earlier cars which drain directly on top of the battery pack and the SeC did not bother to check and correct it !!!
Not sure what to make of it? That my car AC condensate drain line has a better design to divert the drainage away from the top of the pack OR my car’s AC condensate drain line design is the same as the earlier cars which drain directly on top of the battery pack and the SeC did not bother to check and correct it !!!
I took my car to get the AC condensate drain unplugged; they dropped the battery to remedy the problem; as far as I can tell the line still drips water either onto the battery or onto a shield (I can see water dripping down the battery with the AC on).
I guess I'll be taking my car apart to route a drain extension to somewhere that hopefully doesn't collect bugs or road grit and plug up the drain again.
I start to wonder about the supercharging as well... those of us with lifetime free are told to l2 charge at home to "save the battery" when this may not really be a huge factor as the bats are all dying from moisture issues vs. fast charging. i supercharge a few times per month in town and when going out of town.. it saves 20 bucks on a full charge vs. pge off peak rates here in california when i am down to 20 percent. i dont know if its just propaganda to save tesla a few bucks or not.
I'll have a data point to share later this week. I have a 12/2014 car (VIN 62xxx) that got a new 1014116-00-B pack last year. I will find out from Tesla SC this week whether I still have the bad old drain line design. My guess is probably yes, since an independent inspection of the new pack found some evidence of corrosion around the front bolts of the pack. Also, when Tesla replaced the pack (not under my ownership), they re-used old rear corner attachment plates that don't fit the new pack, which the inspection also revealed. Neither impressed nor surprised by these decisions.
We actually had a customer do this on a salvage flood vehicle they repaired a while back. The problem is that once desiccant gets saturated, the moisture they absorb seems to just pool in/around them. So, they can be a short term solution, but they don't solve the problem and can potentially make it worse.
I've had some folks ask Tesla about this and they don't seem to be doing this. There appears to be some kind of goodwill thing for some older packs that had contactor replacements done previously under an older procedure, but doesn't seem to be super common.
You're on the edge of the change, so, only way to know for sure would be to physically inspect it.
Just to add that I have a ‘15 P85D Vin 848XX and would love to get any sort of DIY kit. I’m stationed in Germany so this would definitely give me some peace of mind on anything I can do to prevent issues. I have access to vehicle bays on base. Also, when I PCS back to the US I’ll definitely ship my vehicle to you to get it inspected. It seems you guys are the only ones that care about maintenance on these cars. Keep up the good work!
It's a march 2016 90D -- pre facelift AP1; VIN 13191XXX
I haven't pulled the frunk tub to look, but it looks to me like it's not routed to drip somewhere intentionally...
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GHammer
Dark Star
I'm on the west coast and i would gladly drive cross country to have this service done. I have a '14 P85+ built in 10/14, one of the few P85 plusses with AP and it's my favorite of my three Teslas. The battery appears to be in good shape, supercharges as fast as can be expected and range is very good and i would love to keep it that way.
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