Production vs. Conversion, Model S Drivetrain, EVTV coverage etc.

[qwk]

Ok Here is a converted EV very close to your requirements and did VERY well at the Pikes Peek Hill Climb. One of the guys who built it used to work for Jack and they brought the car to Jack's show...

EV West Pikes Peak Official Run 2012 - Electric BMW M3 - First Converted Car to Race - YouTube (By the way, the Model S would over heat in this race...)

EV West Electric BMW M3 E36 Pikes Peak Race Car Drifts and Burnouts - YouTube

This Electric E36 Makes 850 lb/ft of Torque at the Wheels! - /TUNED - YouTube ( 850 ft-lb )

Here is a worhtless purpose built electric drag car spanking a model S in a drag race. It has virtually no range of course but it is MUCH faster than a Model S and it is built with those cheap Chinese parts that Jack sells...

TESLA P85 Gets ZAPPED by Electric MIATA !! - 1/4 mile Drag Race Video - Road Test TV - YouTube

Thanks for making my point. You have to compare RACE cars in order to even come close to what Tesla has to offer. The only street car that I know of that has impressive performance is John Wayland's "White Zombie". You should ask him what kind of time, and money it takes to build a vehicle like that.

Whether you want to admit it or not, Tesla has changed the way people look at EV's, the conversion market hasn't. When dishing out $$$$$, not many want lackluster performance. Just look at the Cadillac ELR sales. Anyway, we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[sranger]

Thanks for making my point. You have to compare RACE cars in order to even come close to what Tesla has to offer. The only street car that I know of that has impressive performance is John Wayland's "White Zombie". You should ask him what kind of time, and money it takes to build a vehicle like that.

Whether you want to admit it or not, Tesla has changed the way people look at EV's, the conversion market hasn't. When dishing out $$$$$, not many want lackluster performance. Just look at the Cadillac ELR sales. Anyway, we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

Actually I agree that Tesla has changed the way people think about EV's. I NEVER ONCE SAID OTHERWISE!!!!

What you refuse to admit is that coverted pieces of junk like my cars ALSO have changed the way many people think about EV's...

In fact is was a CONVERTED car that got Elon interested in EV's to start with. Without these pieces of junk built in a garage, there might well not even be a Tesla Motors...

 

[JRP3]

So for some reason Jack decided to bring this topic back up in his latest video. Guess he needed to stir up more fake controversy for his show. I left a comment with a link to this thread so people can see the actual discussion for themselves instead of Jacks completely inaccurate characterization.

The madness starts around the 36 minute mark.

 

[SmartElectric]

I had planned on building my own electric conversion using my Ford Focus and after much research, I came to the conclusion I would be better off buying a car from a major manufacturer, which I did. I couldn't be happier with my Smart Fortwo ED. It's been perfect. I am impressed every day with the engineering that went into this little car. That you can lease one for $150/mo taxes included is mind boggling. I was looking at spending $20K just in parts to convert my Focus to achieve a less perfect result.

That said, I am a complete believer there are different strokes for different folks. Good fortune to the DIY folks here!

 

[dhrivnak]

I have been to EVCCON (Electric Vehicle Conversion Convention) that Jack hosts and there are some AMAZING conversions. One BMW that edged me out in the 1/8 mile but then he was the #2 racer in last year's Pike Peak Challenge and then I saw John Metric's car that does do the 1/4 in under 11 seconds and is a VERY fast car. Most builds are VERY impressive quality. If you build it you can fix it. The OEM cars normally requires a trip to the dealer or a Ranger visit.

So while I have done conversions a 97 Jeep Wrangler and a 2001 Miata, and even made my 2004 Avalanche a plug in hybrid, I am still amazed at the quality of the Roadster. There is room in the world for both camps. We have over a billion ICE cars out there. Those are who we need to work on not the DIY crowd.

 

[loganss]

The article is not well written IMO. I wished the dude just got to the point without all the fluff. Also he mentioned the dude he was talking to experienced issues while charing on several occasions. Is that with Chademo, Level II, and/or superchargers?

Tesla does not replace drive trains because of the balloon sound. Plus as I understand it, the noise is coming from the contactors in the battery pack, not the drive train.

What are you describing as the "balloon" sound? I was hearing a faint whine at 30-40mph and mentioned it to my service center during annual inspection and they repaced my drivetrain for that. This replacement happened around 33,000miles.

 

[NigelM]

There's some borderline snippiness in this thread recently.....please don't make us start quarantining stuff.

 

[ThosEM]

There's some borderline snippiness in this thread recently.....please don't make us start quarantining stuff.

I glean from the snippiness that there is a very serious issue here that makes folks anxious. A potential out-of-warranty $15k replacement cost that also has the potential to recur at intervals as short as 10k miles can have, as the man wrote, a very serious effect on resale values.

IMHO, Tesla should deal with this issue head on, describing the situation as they are facing it, dispensing with any secrecy, and saying how they are going to deal with it longer term, just as they did with the battery fire issues. It really doesn't matter how knowledgable or reliable the author of that provocative article may or may not be. He is just sifting through the available evidence (especially from Edmunds.com), as we all are, and trying to make sense of it. Lots of good counterarguments can be made to his apparent take that the problem is insoluble, but the issue is whether or not it has been solved.

 

[qwk]

Go ahead and move it to the EV conversion thread from last year. Someone was here with same argument saying everyone here disrespected Jack and all EV conversions and we owe them everything.

The sad thing is both are right. EV conversions kept things alive and inspired many people at Tesla (well AC propulsion directly did) to build the Roadster and Model S. But if anyone is kidding themselves into thinking they directly inspired 50,000+ people to shell out $80,000+ for an EV I think they need to re-evaluate things. I never would have spent that much on a conversion car with no service or warranty. I know my parents and a few friends that have bought a Model S would never have bought one either. With enough money and talent, sure you can make a car that can outperform the Model S in some or many performance metrics.

Sranger: have you or Jack ever built a car close to the performance of the Model S (sub 6 second 60 time and no, something s little slower isn't 'worthless' but for $100,000 something close is expected) that had a 250+ mile range, gets software updates over 3G and has a 17"'screen while also having as much room and the same safety record? If I have missed such a car then please point that out. Oh, if you or Jack have produced more than one or two of such a car and sold them for under $100k then that would be great. Please post the pictures and the crash test results of such a car.

Jack and other DIY work again is important and no one is discounting that but let's be a little realistic. It's Nissan and Tesla that are actually moving the needle on adoption.

I'm sorry to have veered this thread off topic. I guess what made me mad is that Jack made some statements that were either flat out lies, or just pure speculation, and presented them as fact. It would have been fine to point to the gearbox as the source of failure as long as it was backed up with proof, but I would bet anything that Jack hasn't even seen the inside of a Tesla drive unit, let alone one that has failed. How writing about something that you have no idea about, as fact, and then whining on your show about how Tesloids are jumping on him for this or that makes any sense, is beyond me.

All of the noise issues point to the inverter, and so do the few failures that have happened. My speculation is that the "off the shelf" IGBT's that Tesla uses in both the Roadster and the Model S, sometimes fail (Marco has documented this on here), and that would jive with the drive unit registering a major fault, which in turn opens the battery contactor, leading to a huge clunk that has been reported by every drive unit failure I have seen so far.

 

[dsm363]

I have been to EVCCON (Electric Vehicle Conversion Convention) that Jack hosts and there are some AMAZING conversions. One BMW that edged me out in the 1/8 mile but then he was the #2 racer in last year's Pike Peak Challenge and then I saw John Metric's car that does do the 1/4 in under 11 seconds and is a VERY fast car. Most builds are VERY impressive quality. If you build it you can fix it. The OEM cars normally requires a trip to the dealer or a Ranger visit.

So while I have done conversions a 97 Jeep Wrangler and a 2001 Miata, and even made my 2004 Avalanche a plug in hybrid, I am still amazed at the quality of the Roadster. There is room in the world for both camps. We have over a billion ICE cars out there. Those are who we need to work on not the DIY crowd.

I am sure they do amazing work. It is Jack and his followers that seem to feel neglected or disrespected and are trying to attract attention with fake controversy.

The point it doesn't matter how awesome the conversions are. You'll still have 99+% of the population that would never buy one. What if you buy a $100,000 conversion and you move 1,000 miles away. Who fixes it? I don't see why Jack needs to try and attack Tesla and Tesla owners other than to get attention or out of some other emotional or financial reason.

 

[JRP3]

All I have seen featured on his shows were low range, low power DC motor cars, with an ICE trans/clutch setup.

To be fair most of his builds for the last few years have been AC systems, and he and others have done some great work on their GEVCU which allows people to hack into and control OEM EV motors. So far they've cracked the Siemens and the UQM AC systems.

- - - Updated - - -

The point it doesn't matter how awesome the conversions are. You'll still have 99+% of the population that would never buy one. What if you buy a $100,000 conversion and you move 1,000 miles away. Who fixes it?

Jack would probably point out that people don't "buy" conversions, they build them themselves, which is correct. However, 99.99+% of the population will not build one, so the influence he claims still does not exist to the degree he implies.

 

[dhrivnak]

Lol

If everybody is just writing checks for their performance EV's, and Jack and Brain build theirs where are they? All I have seen featured on his shows were low range, low power DC motor cars, with an ICE trans/clutch setup. Come on Jack, show us what you have built, instead of just working your gums.

They have shown us and I have seen it. Go to EVCCON next month and watch a couple of the conversions smoke your Roadster. I know as I have been there. Most of the cars there have gone over 100 miles on a charge. Jack has been doing A/C builds for a few years and I do not consider 2000 amps at 350 volts low power as it is twice the power of a Roadster Sport.

Tesla has done an awesome job, no doubt about it. But even the Roadster started out as a garage conversion. Let's give credit where credit is due.

 

[sranger]

I will bow out of this thread with this. I am 100% certain that Tesla would not exist without the DIY crowd. A few here seem to want to completely discount that for what ever reason.

The World is connected far more than people here want to admit. I know that Jack is a good guy and cares deeply about the EV movement. I personally think he did exaggerate this issue. He and I have argued a little about this. However there is enough evidence that is should be take seriously.

Can I Build a model s for less than the purchase price? NO

Does that invalidate the contributions of the DIY crowd? Heck NO

My VWThing cost be about $28k. Some may say that was waisted because it can't do 200 miles or 0-60 in 4 sec. I KNOW BEYOND any doubt that it was worth it to me. I also KNOW it has inspired many to
look at EVs that would otherwise not have. I also know that if Jack had not encouraged me to built the EVThing I would NOT have bought a Model S. As a result literally hundreds of people would NOT have had a ride in either of my current EVs.

I am am shocked at how negative some people here view the DIY crowd. I see NO rational reason for the hostility....

If standing up to what I truly believe gets me banned from this site so be it.

I make NO apologist for stating my opinion...

 

[richkae]

The madness starts around the 36 minute mark.

Jack has painted an entire community with a broad brush. There may be a few examples of the attitude that he claims is present here, but I think they are rare, and even if they do exist it is ridiculous to characterize the entire community as such.

I know many people in the home conversion community, and many are geniuses who do incredible work.
I have great respect for them and anyone who would build their own car, especially purpose built race cars that can blow the doors off a production car.
I certainly don't know enough about the entire home conversion community to make sweeping statements about all.
However after watching several of his shows it is easy to make observations about Jack. I don't even need to post them.

 

[qwk]

I will bow out of this thread with this. I am 100% certain that Tesla would not exist without the DIY crowd. A few here seem to want to completely discount that for what ever reason.

The World is connected far more than people here want to admit. I know that Jack is a good guy and cares deeply about the EV movement. I personally think he did exaggerate this issue. He and I have argued a little about this. However there is enough evidence that is should be take seriously.

Can I Build a model s for less than the purchase price? NO

Does that invalidate the contributions of the DIY crowd? Heck NO

My VWThing cost be about $28k. Some may say that was waisted because it can't do 200 miles or 0-60 in 4 sec. I KNOW BEYOND any doubt that it was worth it to me. I also KNOW it has inspired many to
look at EVs that would otherwise not have. I also know that if Jack had not encouraged me to built the EVThing I would NOT have bought a Model S. As a result literally hundreds of people would NOT have had a ride in either of my current EVs.

I am am shocked at how negative some people here view the DIY crowd. I see NO rational reason for the hostility....

If standing up to what I truly believe gets me banned from this site so be it.

I make NO apologist for stating my opinion...

This is completely off topic, and we should take it to the other thread.

I think you are mis-understanding. I think it's great that you converted your VW. We all do as we please. What I have an issue with, are the constant lies and half-truths. There is no way in hell that most people would be able to drive an average conversion like an everyday ICE car. Even the Model S requires compromises(which I'm obviously willing to live with).

 

[palmer_md]

You can read some of the original conversations in the snippiness thread. Its tough to read since there are several threads that get merged into that and they end up in chrono order instead of thread order.

snippiness - Page 52

 

[JRP3]

Jack has painted an entire community with a broad brush.

That's his usual tactic. He's done the same thing to pretty much all the other EV discussion boards, including the DIYelectriccar board, who should be his target audience. He seems to feel the need to create an "us against them" mentality where he is the little guy fighting against the system and changing the world. Most of his shows include a rallying cry of "Give me 100,000 guys in 100,000 garages doing conversions and we'll get everyone driving EV's", while ignoring the fact that Nissan and Tesla are already well ahead and pulling away faster. The EVTV registry of converted EV's numbers 108 vehicles as of today.

 

[Tasdevil]

The merc b class uses the tesla drivetrain. Hope there's no issue for them. Bad for business otherwise.

 

[rabar10]

Mod note: two threads have been merged into one, and a couple dozen posts have been moved to snippiness, etc. A few points:

- We will not tolerate personal attacks on forum members, or for that matter other members of the community at large.

- Please do not conflate a specific person, or their opinions, with the whole of a group. This goes both for Tesla owners/supporters as well as DIY builders and supporters and conversion vehicle shops.

- We may be able to extricate the specific concerns re: the Model S gears/drivetrain out of the larger Production EVs compared to Conversions and DIY, but that will have to wait for another night.

 

[qwk]

Since Jack responded again, with absolutely zero proof, and even resorted to a personal attack(everything was moved to snippiness thread), I'll respond with proof.

Here is the sound that Edmunds had one of the drive units replaced for. It sounds like an electronics noise rather than the gearbox that he claims is causing all of the failures. Listen for yourself.

Ominous Noise - 2013 Tesla Model S Long-Term Road Test

As for the buy a readymade performer vs. Built yourself, here is one of my cars from a long time ago. That was one of the lowest power combinations the car has had. I bought it bone stock in the 90's. Still have it, although it just sits. All of the transmissions the car has had over the years have held up for at least a few years of hundreds of 1/4 mile track passes, a bunch also with MT ET Drag slicks, and tens of thousands of street miles. The car idles like a stock mustang, and still has A/C and power steering. I like experimenting, so the car has gone through a ton of modifications over the years.

http://www.theturboforums.com/threads/292447-stock-motor-incon?highlight=

Your turn, Jack. Where are your performance rides? Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda, doesn't really impress anyone.