-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Production vs. Conversion, Model S Drivetrain, EVTV coverage etc.
- Thread starter allanb4me
- Start date
I should probably add that I looked into converting an early Mustang or Bronco into a performance EV, but to do it right, and have it be reliable with plenty of range, it would have cost six figures. The Model S offered much better value for the money, and it comes with an 8 year battery warranty. When the factory warranty expires, there will only be one person who works on it, ME.
Lately I have been thinking of doing an aluminum jet boat retrofitted with a Drivetrain straight from a wrecked Model S(including both touch screens). Since there are a lot of cars that get totaled, the prices have really come down.
Lately I have been thinking of doing an aluminum jet boat retrofitted with a Drivetrain straight from a wrecked Model S(including both touch screens). Since there are a lot of cars that get totaled, the prices have really come down.
TonyWilliams
Active Member
The Rav4 EV only weighs about 4000 pounds, and is already torque limited to under 300 foot/pounds, yet still has a drivetrain "milling sound" failure rate on par, or even greater than the Model S.
The head of the Toyota Rav4 EV project called me last year (after I complained directly) and he considers that the problem is the inverter and not the actual gearbox. Having said that, obviously neither he nor his company has any direct interaction with the internals of Tesla supplied equipment.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
The thread merge was unfortunate. The drive train issue was a completely unrelated topic, and coupled with all the unnecessary moves to snipiness the thread has become a bit of a mess. I know the mods are trying to keep things civil and organized, but every topic that involves Jack Rickard need not end up in the same thread. Jack is free to attack and spread FUD uncensored on his site and in his videos, it's difficult to counter that if our threads are being edited and merged.
It is unfortunate that the drive train issue got caught up in this -- I may try to split it out.
We're free to discuss EVTV, Jack, etc. in a civil manner. But thus far, every topic that involves Jack ends up going into the same circular argument, hence the merge; and the ad-hominems start flying, hence the moves to snippiness.
We shouldn't let our discussions stoop to (or allowed to be brought down to) a personal level, is the point.
We're free to discuss EVTV, Jack, etc. in a civil manner. But thus far, every topic that involves Jack ends up going into the same circular argument, hence the merge; and the ad-hominems start flying, hence the moves to snippiness.
We shouldn't let our discussions stoop to (or allowed to be brought down to) a personal level, is the point.
This is obviously another point that doesn't jive with Jack's so called "slew rate". Limiting the drive unit in the Rav4 hasn't helped with the noise. If these drive units cannot handle 300 foot/pounds in a lighter vehicle, they most likely would have been turned into a box of rocks in a P85, instead of just making some noise.
The balloon sound is well-known and documented. You hear it in some (many) cars when you're at high throttle positions, usually over 160 kW, although you may occasionally hear it at a lower throttle. It will not happen during steady state driving; only during fairly hard acceleration. Tesla says it is normal. As I understand it, the sound is caused by Lorenz forces on the battery contactors, causing them to vibrate.
If you get an unusual sound at normal driving throttle positions, then you should follow up with Tesla. I had the "milling sound", and my drive train was replaced. Tesla hasn't explained what the sound is caused by, and they say that it's replaced to ease customer concerns but isn't a reliability issue. There's no way to know whether this latter claim is accurate or not, since they don't explain the cause of the noise; however, since they replace the drive train at no cost it's moot unless of course it recurs outside of warranty.
On the topic of production versus conversion, there are places for both. Obviously the percentage of people who go the conversion route will remain small, and may even diminish as production EVs proliferate. But that doesn't take anything away from their pioneering efforts and is to be applauded. Any "controversy" is being largely manufactured IMHO.
dhrivnak
Active Member
Many conversions are not in the database. Jack had a direct impact on the three conversions I did. But since I no longer own those conversions I did not add them to the database. But all three are still on the road.
There were more people at Jacks EVCCON (electric vehicle conversion convention) than at last year's Teslive event.
This statement is silly. How much does it cost to attend EVCCON? Teslive was $2k+, and had limited slots.
dhrivnak
Active Member
Wow snippy; did I hit a nerve? If I recall they were taking reservations a week before Teslive so I do not think the limited slots were a big factor. San Francisco is a much bigger draw than small town Missouri. That said both camps are trying to move us to cleaner transportation and a reduction of oil imports. Let's step back and look at the big picture of what is really important. There are many paths we can take to reach our goal and I thank Nissan, Chevy, Tesla AND Jack for all moving the needle. Maybe most will argue Tesla has moved the needle the most but they are all moving it and the results are additive.
No nerve hit here, but failing to tell the entire story doesn't sit that well with me. Are you saying that $2k isn't a huge deterrent in attendance rates? That is very relevant. It's like saying a certain car catches on fire, but failing to mention that the car has hit a concrete wall at 120mph.
Anyway, I really don't understand why some of the DIY crowd is so against Tesla. I have absolutely no problem with DIY builds, as long as people don't cut corners. It's the lies that I cannot stand. Most conversions won't have the range, power, and dozens of amenities of a Tesla, and that's ok. Making stuff up in order to make conversions measure up, is not cool.
dhrivnak
Active Member
I have been to Jack's EVCCON three times with my Tesla and was FULLY embraced by the crowd. Yes Jack is very opinionated but don't put the DIY in the same camp as Jack. I also suspect part of Jack's rants are more for the show than true beliefs. As I have exchanged a number of emails with him and have seen the non stage side of him.
The first year my Tesla won best of show by crowd voting. That hardly sounds like an anti Tesla crowd. We are all unique and Jack only speaks for himself. He purchased a Model S and it was a hit at the show so I know he is not anti-Tesla.
All the DIY I know of like, no love, Tesla they just cannot afford one. Tesla is a great car but far from a cheap one.
The first year my Tesla won best of show by crowd voting. That hardly sounds like an anti Tesla crowd. We are all unique and Jack only speaks for himself. He purchased a Model S and it was a hit at the show so I know he is not anti-Tesla.
All the DIY I know of like, no love, Tesla they just cannot afford one. Tesla is a great car but far from a cheap one.
I don't doubt the DIY crowd are big fans of Tesla. I'm sure Tesla is doing exactly what they have been working towards for decades and that is to have EVs start going mainstream. The fact that Jack is doing these anti Tesla rants all for show says a lot about his character. All he is doing is trying to hurt the EV movement and boost his standing in his community.
I guess I don't understand how someone can be pro-something in person, and be anti-the very same thing online. Makes absolutely no sense.
As for The Model S being expensive, yes it is. Relative to ICE vehicles, all EV's are expensive, otherwise ICE would have become a distant memory long ago. No DIY EV guy is going to tell me with a straight face that conversions are cheap. Done properly, they cost big bucks, unless there are corners cut. Same with performance ICE cars. Like the old saying goes, pick any two out of ---->fast, cheap, reliable.
dhrivnak
Active Member
I have done three conversions that have proven to be reliable and at $30K are far south of Tesla territory. To most people $30K is not cheap and even at $30K we are talking about good, not great acceleration and 100 mile range. Not shabby but not Tesla territory. Now that $30K assume you you also have a lot of your own labor in the car as well.
As to Jack, I think he is frustrated that Tesla is moving slow on Super Charger build-outs and he has offered to host a SuperCharger and even provide solar power for it. But there has been little movement. There is no way that even a handy person can work on their own car as Tesla will not release a manual or the specifications. So in a way I too am like Jack. I root for Tesla and I own one; and own stock. But they are not perfect and like any new company are going through growing pains. At least that is what we who have Tesla's FAR from any service center or SuperCharger feel many times.
jrickard
Member
How Utterly Cowardly - AND predictable.
Yes We won't put up with any SNIPPINESS.
What we WILL do apparently as moderator, is let SEVEN PAGES of vicious ad hominem attackes pass WITHOUT COMMENT. But if Jack (ie me) happens to get on and respond to ANY of them, let's trash the whole thread.
How utterly cowardly - AND predictable. I think this pretty much explains the sorry mess the Tesla Motors Club has become = essentially an information free cess pool zone. Moderation? You're the heart of the problem.
Very clubby. Very clubby. ONLY speak behind their back, and if they show up to respond, shut er down quick.
You Tesla GUYS are a bunch of GURLZ. Snip that.
Jack Rickard
Yes We won't put up with any SNIPPINESS.
What we WILL do apparently as moderator, is let SEVEN PAGES of vicious ad hominem attackes pass WITHOUT COMMENT. But if Jack (ie me) happens to get on and respond to ANY of them, let's trash the whole thread.
How utterly cowardly - AND predictable. I think this pretty much explains the sorry mess the Tesla Motors Club has become = essentially an information free cess pool zone. Moderation? You're the heart of the problem.
Very clubby. Very clubby. ONLY speak behind their back, and if they show up to respond, shut er down quick.
You Tesla GUYS are a bunch of GURLZ. Snip that.
Jack Rickard
jrickard
Member
QWK. You really do have some sort of reading/writing thing going on here. I'm not certain you're serious. The entire premise, of essentially a GUESS, is that electric motors apply torque in a much faster moment of inertia than an ICE engine car. It doesn't matter if you make 1600 foot lbs of torque, if you take 600 milliseconds to get there. Indeed, the premise is that the drive trains have evolved over many decades specifically to accommodate the nuance of the ICE engine. The only thing different with electric cars is the much faster application of the torque, in many cases LESS torque. And it isn't all theory. We have a lot of builds and have viewed a lot of our viewer builds with strangely twisted and busted transmission pieces and even shafts that just shouldn't be that hosed up with that amount of power. I posit that it is a slew rate issue (the ramp up rate of current from the inverter). Your work on an ICE car just isn't relevant. Actually the whole point of the theory is that they are NOT relevant.
And yes, you guys get six or seven technical things so mixed up it is a bit hard to unwind. Yes there IS a theory that it is the inverter. That's not to say the inverter is MAKING THE NOISE. It's that the inverter might be stressing the gearbox - via the slew rate. The noise itself almost undoubtedly comes from the gearbox. It is NOT a harmless sound. It leads to total failure if not addressed.
How widespread? Kind of hard to say. From the very defensive reaction here in Tesla Forums, which is what I'm curious about, there appears to be plenty of motivation to not talk about it much if you're having it. Particularly if they take care of it, and so far they seem to be doing so as long as you're not a commercial operation without warranty. But several of the ones who have mentioned it, it is most curious that they have more than one replacement. It gets replaced. And that fixes it. And then it comes back. And they get it replaced again. And that fixes it. And then it comes back, and they get it replaced again.
My SENSE is that it's largely a P85 or P85+ issue and that you hear most about it from people who like to drive the car hard. But no sympathy. Tesla touts it as a performance car and it is certainly priced accordingly. So I would say it is incumbent on them to fix it.
I did find it interesting they called last week about 20 minutes after the show was posted to schedule my annual service a few weeks early. But I have to say, they drove a truck down from St. Louis this morning (130 miles to their facility) and hauled it off. The guy called this afternoon and they will deliver it at 9:00 AM tomorrow. We had some little issues with visor mirrors and the little black remotes and so forth. Steering knuckle noise. But the "service" has suddenly become very very impressive. But with 4800 miles on it, we just don't have any drive train issues.
Woulda? Shoulda? Doesn't really impress anyone? Who are you trying to impress? What language IS woulda shoulda?
And yes, you guys get six or seven technical things so mixed up it is a bit hard to unwind. Yes there IS a theory that it is the inverter. That's not to say the inverter is MAKING THE NOISE. It's that the inverter might be stressing the gearbox - via the slew rate. The noise itself almost undoubtedly comes from the gearbox. It is NOT a harmless sound. It leads to total failure if not addressed.
How widespread? Kind of hard to say. From the very defensive reaction here in Tesla Forums, which is what I'm curious about, there appears to be plenty of motivation to not talk about it much if you're having it. Particularly if they take care of it, and so far they seem to be doing so as long as you're not a commercial operation without warranty. But several of the ones who have mentioned it, it is most curious that they have more than one replacement. It gets replaced. And that fixes it. And then it comes back. And they get it replaced again. And that fixes it. And then it comes back, and they get it replaced again.
My SENSE is that it's largely a P85 or P85+ issue and that you hear most about it from people who like to drive the car hard. But no sympathy. Tesla touts it as a performance car and it is certainly priced accordingly. So I would say it is incumbent on them to fix it.
I did find it interesting they called last week about 20 minutes after the show was posted to schedule my annual service a few weeks early. But I have to say, they drove a truck down from St. Louis this morning (130 miles to their facility) and hauled it off. The guy called this afternoon and they will deliver it at 9:00 AM tomorrow. We had some little issues with visor mirrors and the little black remotes and so forth. Steering knuckle noise. But the "service" has suddenly become very very impressive. But with 4800 miles on it, we just don't have any drive train issues.
Woulda? Shoulda? Doesn't really impress anyone? Who are you trying to impress? What language IS woulda shoulda?
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
Oh stop. You're better than this. This kind of response is just flat out bullying. You know it. I know it. And yes, I AM a girl. So don't try that insult on me because it will totally miss the mark. *hair fluff* There's room for everyone here, if you can just try parking your ego over on the side. You gotta make room for everyone. It's not all about you and that's all people are asking here.
Gawd. Don't be such a whiner.
You must be missing my point. I can't really tell whether it's on purpose or not.
You say the problem is mostly in the P85, and P85+. How do you explain the noise in the much detuned Rav4 EV? There have been more than their fair share of replacements of drive units in those cars.
- - - Updated - - -
That's exactly my point. $30k for a vehicle with about the specs of the Leaf. That's probably not counting the donor, and definately not counting your time. Now run the numbers for something similar to Tesla's range and power, and you will be kissing six figures in no time. Unless you are a tinkerer with a huge bankroll(it's not like you just run out and get a loan for this sort of thing), and love this stuff, it makes little sense.
I have said this before, and I'll say it again. If someone needs a manual to work on one of these cars, they probably do not have the expertise needed to not get hurt. About the only problems I can foresee is getting new firmware loaded to the car(which currently is one phone call away).
Similar threads
- Article
