Project Better Place

[Johan]

The moment we forget that this is just plugs and sockets is the moment we imagine we need complex and expensive systems to dispense electricity

This is very true. Look at the images below, photos of actual charge points where I live (Norway). Granted they are ugly but cheap! I don't care if they're ugly, as long as they work. And better to have 10 ugly ones (availability) than 2 fancy looking ones (crowded).
Now these are 16A Shuckos, but 3-phase Mennekes would just be a little more expensive to install and build.

 

[Adm]

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/465656E0B18EBF5DCA257A4400241285

ONE of seven Holden Commodores converted to run on electricity by Port Melbourne-based EV Engineering covered 1886 kilometres in a 24-hour period this weekend, unofficially breaking the world record for a production EV of 1690km set last month by Renault’s Zoe.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Now these are 16A Shuckos, but 3-phase Mennekes would just be a little more expensive to install and build.

Agreed... 43kW Type 2 can be very simple, reliable, and low cost (~$500)... here's some 1 Phase examples :smile:

 

[ElSupreme]

<OffTopic>
People are still running XP on laptops? ?!? Are you kidding me? Talk about a portable virus magnet, an instant member of a botnet, a free invitation to steal personal data...
</OffTopic>

But it is what my employer provided me! :redface:

XP SP3 - 32bit laptop. AKA big POS!

 

[mgemmell]

I see the argument still rages on, as if we had to choose charging or battery swapping but can't have both. What nonsense.

Charge outlets are fine and will carry on growing in number for certain. Home charging will always be the preferred option for those of us with the good fortune to have a garage with a power outlet, but 50% of people on the planet live in cities, and most of those 3.5B are living in places like this:

Most of us in TMC I suspect do not live in such apartments but most people in European cities, Chinese cities, Latin American cities, and Japanese cities (as well as NYC and Chicago) do, and do not have a private garage or a designated parking space.

Battery swap will be a very attractive option for them. Their 500km range will mean they only need to swap once a week or once a month, but swapping is the closest thing to refuelling an ICE and this model is right now working for most of the planet.

Let me repeat, this is not an either/or argument. Both modes of re-energising are valid and have their place, but long term for most of the World's growing city dwellers battery swap will be their best/only option.

 

[Robert.Boston]

The moment we forget that this is just plugs and sockets is the moment we imagine we need complex and expensive systems to dispense electricity

The counter-argument, Kevin, is that it would be a crying shame if we don't intelligently incorporate EVs into the electric grid. Treating them as dumb appliances that draw current when plugged in throws away a great deal of value and imposes future costs for network upgrades. In Israel, it sounds like BP is effectively acting as an agent for the grid operator to use EVs to help balance the grid in real time. Great use of EVs, provided that the battery owner is compensated for the associated costs and potential inconvenience. This smart integration may require nothing more than "plugs and sockets" at charge points, but it will surely require more sophisticated IT and communications infrastructure in the system, too. Who is building that in Great Britain, or the US? No one that I know of.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

The counter-argument, Kevin, is that it would be a crying shame if we don't intelligently incorporate EVs into the electric grid. Treating them as dumb appliances that draw current when plugged in throws away a great deal of value and imposes future costs for network upgrades.

Who said that we shouldn't support V2G? The Type 2 connector is ideal for this purpose and I can see no reason why Charging Stations cannot be upgraded in the future to support this (indeed, all of the ZCW donations are modular by design for this very purpose). However, focusing on complex, expensive, and unreliable charging infrastructure is NOT the way to kick start a new industry. I have driven ~32,000 miles in the Tesla and NEVER had a problem charging on 'simple' sockets... conversely, I hear everyday of people finding 'smart' Charging Stations that do not work.

Let's start simple and then add complexity over time if we find it's required.

This smart integration may require nothing more than "plugs and sockets" at charge points, but it will surely require more sophisticated IT and communications infrastructure in the system, too. Who is building that in Great Britain, or the US? No one that I know of.

Not sure what you are asking here... we have many charging hardware providers in the UK supporting the government funded back office system... the problem for EV drivers is that you can't rely on it working

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Let me repeat, this is not an either/or argument. Both modes of re-energising are valid and have their place, but long term for most of the World's growing city dwellers battery swap will be their best/only option.

Personally, I would rather go to the fuel (gas) station up the road for a quick charge than have to find a swap station that is compatible with my battery. I also don't want to drive a car that has very limited charging capability (like the Fluence) because the swap station vendor can't risk losing my business if I fast charge.

 

[mgemmell]

Personally, I would rather go to the fuel (gas) station up the road for a quick charge than have to find a swap station that is compatible with my battery. I also don't want to drive a car that has very limited charging capability (like the Fluence) because the swap station vendor can't risk losing my business if I fast charge.

If you can fully charge 85kW in the time it takes to switch batteries (<10 mins) without long term battery damage I'm with you. Such a rapid charge station would be just as valuable to a consumer as a battery swap station.

Such a charging station capable of charging say 4 cars each at 85kW in 10 minutes would impose such a drain on the local grid that it would not work however. Also, rather than being recharges overnight when there is excess supply, these would be during daily commutes (when most of us refuel) which would place high demands at the worst times. Unless the charge station had some huge storage (like a stack of batteries perhaps?) round back. I don't see people driving out at 3am to refuel do you?

Your complaint, and mine, with BP is that they have a closed system and forbid casual charging (I don't see them stopping rapid charging, just as long as it is BP rapid charging ).

Battery switching is still the long term likely solution for most of the World's city dwellers. Just maybe not BP's closed battery switching solution.

Do BP have patents on swapping batteries? I doubt that would be possible. So anyone could set up a battery switching station for the model S tomorrow. All you need is a serious piece of robot tech, a spare model S battery and a PEM to charge it up. Anyone care to join me in that little venture?

 

[stopcrazypp]

Unless the charge station had some huge storage (like a stack of batteries perhaps?) round back. I don't see people driving out at 3am to refuel do you?

The difference in that case is that with stationary storage you have many more storage options (it doesn't have to be ones that have great energy density and it doesn't even have to be batteries at all) and you don't need standard sizes since the storage is essentially invisible to the car that's charging. The SCiB cells in the Fit EV and iMIEV can handle all that fast charging with cycles to spare, even in a small pack (it can last 6000 cycles to 82% capacity using 6 minute/10C charging and 2C discharge).
http://www.toshiba.com/ind/data/tag_files/SCiB_Brochure_5383.pdf

Your complaint, and mine, with BP is that they have a closed system and forbid casual charging (I don't see them stopping rapid charging, just as long as it is BP rapid charging ).
Battery switching is still the long term likely solution for most of the World's city dwellers. Just maybe not BP's closed battery switching solution.

There are two separate issues here. One is BP's subscription model (which extends beyond just battery swapping). The other is battery swapping in general.

The reason why the two is tied together is because battery swapping can't work for daily usage (as in the city scenario you point out) without a subscription model like BP, since people don't like swapping their own battery for one with unknown quality/life. Personally, I think without a subscription service (where another party owns your battery and the above issue is no longer a concern), the role I see for battery swapping is for rented long range packs that are swapped back when you return from a long trip. Of course, that model still doesn't work for city dwellers. Maybe for them it'll be a "battery sharing" program (kind of like the car sharing programs we have already), so you still own your battery, but you let other people "borrow" it, while you can "borrow" other people's also.

I don't think most people are against the idea of battery swapping, they just don't like the subscription model of BP (esp. given how BP likes to compare to a cell phone carrier model, which most people dislike).

 

[Doug_G]

I can see a place for battery swapping for long trips Let's say we have a Model S that we want to take on a long trip. We drop by a swapping location and they put our regular pack into storage, and lend us a fully charged long range pack. We then travel tand swap packs again as needed. Then on our way home we drop by and pick up our original pack, which has suffered no degradation from the long trip.

As for the V2G thing, I think this is foolish. Stationary battery storage can be better optimized for the purpose and at lower cost. I'm not going to wear out my expensive vehicle pack to help balance the grid.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

If you can fully charge 85kW in the time it takes to switch batteries (<10 mins) without long term battery damage I'm with you. Such a rapid charge station would be just as valuable to a consumer as a battery swap station.

I really don't mind the idea of a 30 minute fast charge before I commence my journey if it's combined with some other service. I would also say that if I've just driven 300 miles then the last thing I want to do is drive another 300 with a <10 minute stop. IMO a 30 minute stop at a motorway service station is perfectly acceptable especially when combined with some useful service.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

I can see a place for battery swapping for long trips Let's say we have a Model S that we want to take on a long trip. We drop by a swapping location and they put our regular pack into storage, and lend us a fully charged long range pack. We then travel tand swap packs again as needed. Then on our way home we drop by and pick up our original pack, which has suffered no degradation from the long trip.

I can see Tesla offering that service to it's customers... however, I think the number of people using this service is so low that a company like BP cannot survive.

 

[JRP3]

Battery switching is still the long term likely solution for most of the World's city dwellers. Just maybe not BP's closed battery switching solution.

I'm not sure. Switching might work for occasional long distance trips, but if a city full of EV drivers depends on switching for their daily "charging" I think the logistics become much worse. A long distance swap station can get by with a limited number of packs on site and a limited number of swap bays, the swap model you expect for city dwellers would require a much higher percentage of packs and swap bays per vehicle.

 

[dmckinstry]

IMHO, these go a bit "hand in hand". One argument against pack-swap/switch is that someone who owns a new battery may not want it swapped out for a used one. If you lease it then you have less say in the matter. Heck, maybe they deliver your 'new' car with an already used battery installed.

OTOH, if you're only swapping 85kWh packs on a Model S, they already have a 8 year warranty. If Tesla were controlling the supply chain, what your battery is being swapped wouldn't be as much an issue. Tesla could be controlling the charging rate for optimum battery life. Never supercharge, at home charging could be monitored. To assure nothing bad is happening to the pack and the warranty would be for 8 years whatever the mileage.
Of course the issue with this model would be the expense for Tesla in setting up such a system vs. the supercharger system.

 

[Robert.Boston]

As for the V2G thing, I think this is foolish. Stationary battery storage can be better optimized for the purpose and at lower cost. I'm not going to wear out my expensive vehicle pack to help balance the grid.

1. But would you let the utility tinker with your rate of charging, provided that your car was fully charged at the time you requested? Assuming that this lowered your electricity bill?
2. At what price would you be willing to send power back to the grid? In Texas, e.g., wholesale energy prices can rise to $4000/MWh = $4/kWh. I'd be willing to sell 25kWh for $100 on a hot afternoon.

But I agree, stationary batteries will be standard fare in 8 years, as the existing crop of EV batteries are cycled out of cars. Perfect use for them.

 

[brianoflondon]

1. But would you let the utility tinker with your rate of charging, provided that your car was fully charged at the time you requested? Assuming that this lowered your electricity bill?
2. At what price would you be willing to send power back to the grid? In Texas, e.g., wholesale energy prices can rise to $4000/MWh = $4/kWh. I'd be willing to sell 25kWh for $100 on a hot afternoon.

But I agree, stationary batteries will be standard fare in 8 years, as the existing crop of EV batteries are cycled out of cars. Perfect use for them.

Reuse of old batteries is another reason why my calculation says the price I pay to lease a battery is reasonable. The batteries cost less for BP and they have a better chance of getting top dollar for them at the end because they can bulk sell.

 

[Doug_G]

1. But would you let the utility tinker with your rate of charging, provided that your car was fully charged at the time you requested? Assuming that this lowered your electricity bill?
2. At what price would you be willing to send power back to the grid? In Texas, e.g., wholesale energy prices can rise to $4000/MWh = $4/kWh. I'd be willing to sell 25kWh for $100 on a hot afternoon.

But I agree, stationary batteries will be standard fare in 8 years, as the existing crop of EV batteries are cycled out of cars. Perfect use for them.

Yes, I would agree to let them tinker with my charge rate, as long as it was charged by the time I specify. However that requires a huge level of integration with the vehicle itself. Plus I don't see the benefit. I charge at low TOU rates already, and our utility has too much power at night, so surely they'll crank it to the max.

Of course there is a price at which I would be willing to send power back to the grid, as long as it didn't draw more than a specified amount of power from the pack, so I can drive the car when I need it. The problem is, they would need the power during weekdays, when my car isn't plugged in. There would have to be compatible charging infrastructure at work.

The problem with all of the above is that (a) it might conflict with my use of the car, (b) I'm going to charge top dollar for this and it won't be competitive if stationary storage comes on line, and (c) there's a lot of complex infrastructure to develop to make the above happen. I'm not sure there's enough motivation to make it happen.

 

[Robert.Boston]

Yes, I would agree to let them tinker with my charge rate, as long as it was charged by the time I specify. However that requires a huge level of integration with the vehicle itself. Plus I don't see the benefit. I charge at low TOU rates already, and our utility has too much power at night, so surely they'll crank it to the max.

On this point (utility-directed charging), the chokepoint is most likely to be your distribution circuit, not the bulk power supply. As EVs become widespread, some distribution circuits could be overtaxed by high loads that could be spread to other hours without inconvenience to the customers. Also, although your TOU rate is flat throughout the night, the real-time wholesale price is not, so the utility could take advantage of lowest-priced power. (Less relevant in Ontario and Quebec, granted).

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

EVTV June 1, 2012 "huge investor scam" (starts at 09:16)

[video]http://media3.ev-tv.me/news060112-1280.mov[/video]