Questions from a prospective Model 3 performance owner

[Chancellor32]

@xxaarraa

Da fuq?

You see Corvette's for sale at any Tesla lot? They take your car in for YOUR convenience and wholesale it to whomever. Don't like Tesla's price? - Sell it somewhere else.



THAN DON'T. Someone else will. Be seeing you in my rearview.

I feel like you are quickly becoming my favorite TMC member haha. So many good lines for the haters.

 

[MXWing]

I feel like you are quickly becoming my favorite TMC member haha. So many good lines for the haters.

Thank you, I get a lot of haters myself so I appreciate the support. My haters tend to be:

* Tesla / Autopilot experts who don't even own Tesla's. Or funniest yet, don't care to own one.
* People who focus on leaves but can't see the forest when dealing with Tesla.
* People without any sense.

My own son knows he is at risk 24/7 for a slap upside the head whenever he says/does stupid *sugar*.

Only a father who loves his children to the ends of the earth has that kind of eternal vigilance.

I love my fellow Tesla owners too, so I try to keep things real for them. <3

 

[xxaarraa]

SO in your mind what would "win" your business? A bigger discount on an inventory vehicle?

Not looking to get into a back and forth, my posts above are already pretty clear.

Tesla PM3 is a fast car, very interesting on some levels. Just not enough value in the whole purchasing and ownership package for me to pull the trigger. My buying decisions are my own, I don't have to rationalize those to others. Plenty of fish in the sea of high performance automobiles - something for everyone.

MXWing, you are amusing! Drive safe all.

 

[MXWing]

Not looking to get into a back and forth, my posts above are already pretty clear.

Tesla PM3 is a fast car, very interesting on some levels. Just not enough value in the whole purchasing and ownership package for me to pull the trigger. My buying decisions are my own, I don't have to rationalize those to others. Plenty of fish in the sea of high performance automobiles - something for everyone.

MXWing, you are amusing! Drive safe all.

Something faster than a Corvette, seats five and fits a whole Costco run is really appealing to me but I understand our needs may be different.

As a final consideration, Tesla doesn't have "inventory" Performance Model 3s. It's not like a dealer in any way, sense, shape or form.

To "window dress" the financial quarters, Tesla is willing to sell something normally not for sale and replace it next week after the quarter is over.

If you don't buy them:

1.) Someone else will.
2.) They just get test driven more to drive Q4 sales.

You have time before end of year to order the exact car you want without any miles.

If you had a lemon and Tesla bought it back - they deduct $1 for every mile. Since you are getting $1.70 for every mile, it's a reasonable deal. EV drivetrains are nothing like an ICE drivetrain. I couldn't trust a Corvette engine to be broken in properly, but no worries with a Tesla if the rest of the car is in good shape.

Good luck and drive safe as well. I'm a Tesla fan but not to the point of being blind to their issues nor would unethically steer someone against what I feel to be their best interest.

 

[GlennAlanBerry]

Despite your protests, your biggest issues seem to be driven by economics and perhaps a sense of entitlement. Tesla low-balled your trade-in, Tesla wouldn't give you a big enough discount on a demo vehicle. You might not get free Supercharging. Tesla wouldn't kiss your ass in some other way "to win your business".

Every Tesla employee I have ever dealt with has been friendly and helpful, but they are also incredibly busy this quarter, trying to deliver a huge number of Model 3 vehicles. Tesla is not perfect, and their customer service has declined compared to five years ago.

Yes, I am a Tesla fan. Personally, I don't need to have my butt kissed by the manufacturer if I actually like their product enough. If driving a Model S P100D for a weekend or test driving a Model 3 Performance doesn't make you want to buy one, then perhaps you just have different tastes.

 

[cab]

Thank you very much for all your thoughts, I am sure there are dozens of these threads that pop up from new owners so I appreciate your patience!

So here's an update.

• Lifetime supercharging is indeed still available on inventory PM3 cars, if sold before end of September. So you have a week left.
• Tesla's ability to win over general brand-agnostic non-fanboi traffic is still poor. To explain, I am a general auto enthusiast and not committed to any one brand. I have owned Porsches, AMGs, M3s, Corvettes, Raptors etc. I seek change and I seek good product experiences, I have no loyalties.
• Given that, Tesla turned me off in a big way. They lowballed my trade, which is not a deal breaker, I am used to that switching cars as often as I do. But they also did not make any sense on the top line i.e., sticker price of their cars. They have a ton of fully loaded inventory PM3s sitting around (more on that later) with various miles on them. i.e., they are demo cars. They offered a markdown on them, but markdowns made no sense whatsoever. A gray car with more miles than a red car had a lower markdown, which is silly considering the red paint in itself costs more. A red car with 1000 miles on it had only a $1700 markdown and I am not touching a 1000 mile car unless manufacturer takes $5k off the sticker.
• At least in the Dallas market, the fully loaded $80K+ model 3s aren't moving. Every store (there were 3 of them in my area) is sitting on inventory cars in that price range. This is worrying in the long run as I would lose my shirt when I trade in again in 18 months if my local market does not desire a fully loaded 3 at all.

So overall, I think it's a cool product, but the general "take it or leave it" MO isn't enough to win my business, given that I'm a brand-agnostic enthusiast.

I think much of the markdown dilemma comes from the fact that we are still in "year one" of a new product offering. Heck, for the performance model, we are only in month three! Once the hoopla dies down a bit you will likely see inventory cars with discounts on them. Heck, just look at the Model S inventory cars out there - there are a number of decent discounts on those ($2500-$20K+ per ev-cpo).

I actually test drove one of the model 3 perfs at the Southlake store myself. It is a nice ride for sure and I'd love to have one. My review of that car (compared to my own Model S P85+):

Vehicle
Red 2018, Model 3 Performance with white interior, autopilot, and performance upgrade package (i.e. 20” rims with Michelin Pilot Sport 4s tires, upgrade red brakes, carbon fiber spoiler). Vin in 55K range (probably July or August build). It looked about as good as a Model 3 can in my opinion…pretty sweet.


The route:
I was the first test drive scheduled for the day and it was a weekday. They had a prescribed route, but I asked to drive “more” and they obliged. Indeed, I think I drove the dang thing for 45 minutes. I live close to the gallery so I got to drive on the specific roads that I know were bumpier or had the washboard effect that my own S doesn’t like (the one that triggers the buffeting). Heck, I dang near drove it to my driveway (I was that close).


Acceleration:
I nailed it at several points. Stronger off-the-line that my P85+ for sure, but definitely not at Model S ludicrous level. It actually seem to hit a little softer (slightly less drama) than my P85+, but then quickly ramps up. Unlike my RWD P85+ though (which is having trouble putting the power down for sure with the worn Goodyears), it puts “most” of the power down. I say “most” because the 3 perf will actually get a bit squirrely if you nail it from a stop – even when the car is pointed straight ahead. More specifically, I can feel the front tires lose traction (note: on the RWD cars, the rears will lose traction). I also nailed it in a slow sweeping turn (from <15 mph) and felt the same thing (front tires letting go a tad and car pushed a bit). I think it all comes down to weight. The car is 800 or more pounds lighter than the S and with that much less mass pushing on those tires in a shorter wheelbase to boot, it just struggles a bit with all that torque.

I had limited time on the freeway, but freeway acceleration was good (note: I was not as blown away here as some reviewers seem to note, but there was no “shortage” of oomph). There is a considerable difference from the base RWD car.


Handling and Fun to Drive Factor
So, as with my test drives of the RWD 3 (one test drive at Northpark mall and then I rented one for a day), the defining delta to the S is the weight of the 3. It is so much lighter (although still a heavy car compared to most), it is just easier to drive and have fun with. The handling is good and it never feels ponderous like the S can (and I have a P85+ with the “sports” suspension) – the latter was immediately evident as I drove my S home on the exact same streets I had just tested the 3 on. My S suddenly felt BIG. THIS would be the “reason to pick a 3 over an S”…assuming this reason is important to you. The extra power just makes it seem even lighter than the RWD car (even though it is, in fact, a bit heavier).


The steering doesn’t really communicate what is happening with the tires much, but that does seem a typical of a lot of cars these days (still, I actually think my 5 year old S is at least as communicative in that regard…a low bar perhaps).


Dual vs. Single Motor
I find the dual motor option compelling “enough” on this car that I would pony up for it. Given that I noticed rear wheel slip when turning from one street to another (and merging into fast moving traffic) in the RWD tests I did, it just adds that extra bit of grip that I appreciate. It also helps to compensate as tires wear. Indeed, my P85+ with new PS2s was really grippy. When I moved to the Goodyear Touring tires I lost some grip. Now with 18K miles on those tires, they are really losing traction under harder acceleration. It breaks them lose on a hard punch from 30 mph+ now (and, of course, from a dig).


Ride Quality
As noted above, this car was on the 20” Michelin PSS4s. I did not think to check the tire pressure. I also did not get to ride in the back. I note the latter because on my previous test drives of the RWD cars, the rear seat ride quality was SIGNIFICANTLY worse than the fronts…the rear shocks on those cars definitely need to be re-tuned. The rebound control just seems way off.

Anyway, I found the ride quality to be pretty darn nice. It is sport-tuned, but (as with the RWD car) feels more BMW “Sport” suspension than BMW “M series” suspension. Indeed, it might even be a tad softer than a BMW Sport suspension. Loads of opportunity for the aftermarket to come in and deliver some coil over setup for those that might want that (I don’t…I hate compromising the everyday ride quality that much in a daily driver). It wasn’t really much different than my P85+, and in some ways it seemed better. I think this is largely due to the weight difference. Manufacturers seem to have a tougher time tuning heavy cars (see my comment around the rear ride quality above), and EVs are almost all heavy. I actually get the impression it MIGHT be even better than the front suspension on the RWD cars. There is the additional weight up front.

As an aside, I drove it on the washboard road surfaces near my house and although those surfaces did transfer some undue vibration (relative to our other “non-Teslas”) it did not result in any extreme NVH.

Road Noise
Road noise is typically much more noticeable at freeway speeds, which I spent minimal time at on this test drive. I can say that this car seemed a bit quieter than the RWD 3 I rented for a day, but I had that one for much longer and over a wide variety of freeway road surfaces. Still, I did note the difference. This was especially interesting as that car (the RWD) had the Michelin all-seasons 18” rims vs. the 20” PSSes on the 3 perf. As further validation of my assessment I remember thinking that the RWD 3 had about the same level of road noise as my 5 year old S…and on my drive home from the test drive (in my S) I immediately noted my S was louder. While I’m not ready to declare the 3 a quiet car by any means, this particular example was, at least, quieter than my S.


Wind noise arrived as we hit 80 mph….typical Tesla.


Everything else
Essentially the same as my LR RWD review.

Is the “Performance” worth it?
Performance is NEVER about value…this is especially true when you start talking about moving from one quick car (the LR RWD 3) to a really quick car…they are both “quick”…and the regular dual motor closes that gap (but primarily on the top end).

If you have the money and don’t mind parting with it, go for it. For me it would mean sacrificing something else like Autopilot, nice wheels and the white interior. It MIGHT be worth it (to me). Indeed, if I didn’t care about what the lack of AP might do at resale, I would drop it in a heartbeat (since I work from home and don’t do really long out of town trips very often, the big use cases aren’t there for me.).

I will say the Performance Package really does look sharp on this car and it would be a shame not to have it to complete the visual impact…but $5k...friggin’ ouch!


Will I get one?
In the end, my S has 64K miles, but is still in overall nice shape (as are most 5 year old cars are that have been treated reasonably well) and as such it is hard to justify “replacing it”. I am a little nervous about owning one outside of warranty. Our Volvo XC60 is 6 ½ years old, but has only 58K miles on it…still, it might be a better candidate for replacement since we always prefer to take the S over it for all but a few out of town trips where Superchargers aren’t quite there yet (note: they are on the SC map, but we all know some of those locations have been on the map as “coming soon” for a looooong time).

I have to admit, this test drive made me feel quite a bit better about the 3. It wasn’t just the performance that did it though, it was all of the other items. I can’t help but wonder though if the deltas (for things like road noise) are greater from one car to the next than they are from say LR RWD base car to this later Perf 3. Still seems to be a lot of manufacturing inconsistency. I, of course, have the spreadsheet in full swing with all iterations of Model 3 – the super cheap low option RWD “budget” version to the fully loaded Perf 3. Part of me thinks “get the Perf 3 in red with no other options…no EAP, FSD, perf pkg, etc”. If the Southlake gallery suddenly reached out to me and offered me a sweet deal on the car I drove to take delivery by the end of September...I would be very tempted, but I can't see that happening.

Other than that, I could just wait until next year...yeah, I lose the rebate, but it isn't the end of the world.

 

[DrDabbles]

• If I order in the next few days (before end of September 2018), do I have a reasonable chance of still getting the car delivered before 12/31/18 so I can get the full $7500 tax credit? I intend to get a fully loaded Model 3 performance.

In Texas? Probably not. Delivery in TX right now is an absolute nightmare, and there are people that have paid for their cars that have been waiting months for delivery. That said, give it a try.

• Are there any specific option packages that are likely to delay the build? e.g., the Raptor I ordered last year would have been delayed months if I wanted specific interior trim packages.

No. I mean, if you custom order silver paint, then sure. Otherwise they're basically making batches of cars and you'll get one from a batch that matches your order.

• I know they keep extending it, but am I still likely to get the lifetime supercharging if I order a Model 3 Performance now?

No.

• How reasonable are the trade-in values? I have a fully loaded C7 Corvette that I intend to trade-in, so what can I expect relative to KBB trade-in values?

You can expect about the same that CarMax would give you for the car. KBB / NADA is usually a bad way to gauge what you'd get for a trade-in because you're judging your own car. That said, my trade got what I thought was acceptable, it fell within the NADA range (KBB values are a joke), and it's about what people on other forums are getting from CarMax for it.

• Do they charge you sales tax only on the difference between trade-in and MSRP on the new Tesla? That's how it is for other cars, but just checking since Tesla's trade-in sounds a little weird.

The trade-in effectively lowers the price of the car, so you only pay on cost minus trade. But, Texas doesn't like Tesla. So the sale transaction may actually take place outside of Texas, and you may end up in a weird tax situation. You should probably contact Tesla themselves to find out what would happen so you don't get internet advice.

 

[DrDabbles]

I now own a red corvette that's a straight up Ferarri rip-off design-wise

I usually cal Corvettes "trailerpark Ferraris", because they pretend they're a Ferrari look, but really they're a Ferrari look only to someone that has never seen one and only had one described to them. By someone else that has never seen one.

 

[gilscales]

My brother in law ordered the P3D+ on 9/7, he takes delivery tomorrow 9/28, 3 weeks to the day, 3rd quarter push for high margin vehicles I’m sure, probably will see the same in December for the last quarter as well