Rebates in Ontario...

[Pieter Knispel]

Not sure how many Canucks we have here from Ontario, but I was reading earlier this morning about an enhanced Ontario plan for dealing with Climate Change:

• $285-million for electric vehicle incentives. These include a rebate of up to $14,000 for every electric vehicle purchased; up to $1,000 to install home charging; taking the provincial portion of the HST off electric vehicle sales; an extra subsidy program for low– and moderate-income households to get older cars off the road and replace them with electric; and free overnight electricity for charging electric vehicles. The province will also build more charging stations at government buildings, including LCBO outlets, and consider making electrical vehicle plug-ins mandatory on all new buildings. The plan sets targets of expanding electric vehicle sales to 5 per cent of all vehicles sold by 2020, up to 12 per cent by 2025, and aiming to get an electric or hybrid vehicle in every multivehicle driveway by 2024, a total of about 1.7 million cars.

So in addition to the $14k, we will get the provincial portion of the HST waived and free overnight charging.... ahhhh, to live in such a progressive province where EV's are being given a real chance!

 

[kzod]

That's great, unless of course Tesla doesn't ship any cars to Canada until a couple of years after the States like is happening with the Model X. If that happens we won't see our cars till 2019, with most likely a new government in Ontario who will most likely slash the rebates.

 

[Pieter Knispel]

Agreed, but that's where I am hoping the increased production rate takes effect; I ordered mine at roughly 10PM (EST) pre-reveal, and hope to be amongst the first Canucks to receive it! With the original production plan I was very concerned about this, but now, less so!

 

[03DSG]

I ordered online as well pre-reveal and got my email at 7:40pm April 1'st. The rebate on the car is based on the 'base price' up to 30% excluding options I figure that the base price of the M3 70D (dual with larger battery) will be about 50k USD/65k CDN qualifing for the entire 14k rebate. Fingers crossed it's still there when I get mine. Love the part about free overnight charging at home!

 

[03DSG]

Agreed, but that's where I am hoping the increased production rate takes effect; I ordered mine at roughly 10PM (EST) pre-reveal, and hope to be amongst the first Canucks to receive it! With the original production plan I was very concerned about this, but now, less so!

I think when they begin Canadian shipments they may target the large number of orders from Vancouver and Toronto. They will be able to ship multiple cars to the same location. I'm hoping for mid '18 if they get the production numbers their looking for.

 

[cheekedave]

Go Ontario go! Lots of chargers will be added all over the place and we will get a nice discount too! I ordered my Model 3 at 9:20AM 3/31 and got my email 10:15AM and plan on getting it fully maxed out, every option available. I want to be one of the first driving around with it in the GTA

I am pretty optimistic that Tesla will get ours out to us way before the rebates go away.

Can't wait!!

 

[RiverBrick]

The current system is designed to help Ontario manufacturers and punish Tesla. Even with the same government, two years down the line there's a risk they will change the rules to prevent the Model 3 from benefitting as much as say a PHEV mini-van made in Windsor that only offers 60 km all-electric range.

 

[03DSG]

The current system is designed to help Ontario manufacturers and punish Tesla. Even with the same government, two years down the line there's a risk they will change the rules to prevent the Model 3 from benefitting as much as say a PHEV mini-van made in Windsor that only offers 60 km all-electric range.

True but then they would have to change all the rules of the plan. The rebate is based on battery size and cost nothing about where it is built. There are lots of BEV's not manufactured in Ontario. Chevy Bolt built in Michigan. BMW i3 built in Germany. Nissan Leaf in Japan, US and the UK. Personally I know of no BEV's built in Ontario. The PHEV's get a smaller rebate based on the smaller battery size. IMO the only way Tesla is being punished is the 75k base model price cap which limits the rebate to $3000. Any model base priced BEV under 75k will get the appropriate rebate based on a max 30% of base value to 14k. That said they can always change the rules.

 

[BravoSarah]

The current system is designed to help Ontario manufacturers and punish Tesla. Even with the same government, two years down the line there's a risk they will change the rules to prevent the Model 3 from benefitting as much as say a PHEV mini-van made in Windsor that only offers 60 km all-electric range.

There may not be many PHEV's built here in Ontario. However, Ontario is a major auto parts manufacturer. BMW, Toyota AND Tesla have auto parts manufactured here.

Magna will definitely be involved in building parts for the Model 3.

This system has nothing to do with punishing Tesla, quite the contrary.

The current government is committed to green energy, EV rebates are part of that plan.

 

[03DSG]

Both Ontario's Magna and Multimatic make parts for Tesla. Multimatic makes the new Ford GT supercar in Markham, Ontario. The currently available Tesla's don't meet NAFTA for donestic (NA) content standards hence Tesla marks up 6.1% duty for Canada. They just pass the cost on to the Canadian market. This is mostly due to the battery. With the Gigafactory manufacturing the M3 in the US we should save that 6.1% on the M3 which will then have a much higher North American content.

 

[RiverBrick]

If the government is first and foremost committed to green energy, why did they slash the rebate on the only all-electric car in production capable of more than 172 km of all-electric range, while boosting rebates on cars with small batteries like the Volt, Focus EV and Pacifica?

If the Model 3 will not be discriminated against because of Ontario content, why is a Minister of the current government flat out calling for a CANADIAN company to kick Elon Musk's ass?

In his speech to the Economic Club last Thursday, Mr. Murray called for an entrepreneur in Canada to play a transformative role in the auto industry and “kick Elon Musk’s ass,” referring to the CEO of Tesla.

 

[kzod]

If the government is first and foremost committed to green energy, why did they slash the rebate on the only all-electric car in production capable of more than 172 km of all-electric range, while boosting rebates on cars with small batteries like the Volt, Focus EV and Pacifica?

Funny, I thought that was the most intelligent thing Wynne has done. Anyone of us who either owns or is considering a Model S is rich enough to afford the car without being subsidized by those who aren't as well off. Bribing Millionaires to buy a car that they would buy in either case is as dumb as giving $1 Billion dollars to Bombardier. Heck, even the $14k that we 'may' get for the Model 3 is overly generous based on the cost/reward ratio. If reducing greenhouse gases was the goal, it would be much better to increase taxes on gas, and offer $2,000 for people to trade in their old gas guzzlers/

 

[03DSG]

If the government is first and foremost committed to green energy, why did they slash the rebate on the only all-electric car in production capable of more than 172 km of all-electric range, while boosting rebates on cars with small batteries like the Volt, Focus EV and Pacifica?

If the Model 3 will not be discriminated against because of Ontario content, why is a Minister of the current government flat out calling for a CANADIAN company to kick Elon Musk's ass?

In his speech to the Economic Club last Thursday, Mr. Murray called for an entrepreneur in Canada to play a transformative role in the auto industry and “kick Elon Musk’s ass,” referring to the CEO of Tesla.

Even Musk said he welcomes competion. The more the merrier. If the Ontario goverment wants lots of EV's and the only way that will happen is if they are AFFORDABLE. The MS is a full on luxury full size sedan. If you bought the least expensive MS today rear drive, 70 kwh) with ZERO options it's 93,300 + 1,300 = 94,600 before tax CDN. A stripped MS90D is 118,100 before tax. How many stripped bare MS's out there with zero options? It's no different than the way the gov't treats marginal tax rates. The more you make the higher % you pay. The subsidy targets people that othwise might not be able to afford the car and encourages them to go EV. All the above just IMO.

 

[RiverBrick]

Funny, I thought that was the most intelligent thing Wynne has done...

Do you consider granting an $8,100 dollar rebate to a loaded xDrive40e costing over $93,000 intelligent? Similarly, it will be possible to option out a Pacifica for over $80,000 and claim a whopping $14,000 rebate. The cutoff of $75,000 only applies to base MSRP, not options. BMW shrewdly set the base xDrive40e price at $74,000, but is easy to get over $90,000 with luxury options.

So, a 93k S70 with ~390 aer qualifies for only $3,000, but a 93k car with 22 km aer gets $8,100 and an 80k one with 60 km aer $14,000. That's not intelligent, it's idiotic. Also, make no mistake, these hybrids will get ZERO aer during Canadian Winters.

If millionaires are only eligible to pay taxes, then limit rebates based on income, not on MSRP. As it stands, a family can spend over $200,000 on three plug-ins and claim $40,000 in rebates, but the family that goes with one $93,000 S70 only receives $3,000, because they are "too rich."

 

[Spenny818]

True but then they would have to change all the rules of the plan. The rebate is based on battery size and cost nothing about where it is built. There are lots of BEV's not manufactured in Ontario. Chevy Bolt built in Michigan. BMW i3 built in Germany. Nissan Leaf in Japan, US and the UK. Personally I know of no BEV's built in Ontario. The PHEV's get a smaller rebate based on the smaller battery size. IMO the only way Tesla is being punished is the 75k base model price cap which limits the rebate to $3000. Any model base priced BEV under 75k will get the appropriate rebate based on a max 30% of base value to 14k. That said they can always change the rules.

The Toyota Rav4 EV was actually built in Ontario (with a Tesla powertrain), yet we couldn't even buy it here. Just another compliance car built for California. It's a shame really - I had the opportunity to drive one, and it was a very fun ride.

 

[Breezy]

The program's not perfect, that's for sure, but:

Tesla purchasers were one of the largest beneficiaries of the original rebate program.

There is still a $3000 rebate on the Model S and X.

Tesla sets the prices of its cars, not the Ontario government. Tesla could have been reducing the price the Model S over the past 4 years but they decided to go in the other direction. The Model S 40 started at $64,500. The Model S 60 started at $75,200.

The Model 3 can benefit from this program if Tesla actually delivers it on time, and if they prioritize Ontario deliveries.

 

[kzod]

Do you consider granting an $8,100 dollar rebate to a loaded xDrive40e costing over $93,000 intelligent? Similarly, it will be possible to option out a Pacifica for over $80,000 and claim a whopping $14,000 rebate. The cutoff of $75,000 only applies to base MSRP, not options. BMW shrewdly set the base xDrive40e price at $74,000, but is easy to get over $90,000 with luxury options.

So, a 93k S70 with ~390 aer qualifies for only $3,000, but a 93k car with 22 km aer gets $8,100 and an 80k one with 60 km aer $14,000. That's not intelligent, it's idiotic. Also, make no mistake, these hybrids will get ZERO aer during Canadian Winters.

If millionaires are only eligible to pay taxes, then limit rebates based on income, not on MSRP. As it stands, a family can spend over $200,000 on three plug-ins and claim $40,000 in rebates, but the family that goes with one $93,000 S70 only receives $3,000, because they are "too rich."

As Chretien said you seem very entitled to your entitlements. The family that buys 3 EV's is theoretically replacing 3 ICE vehicle's. The Tesla is still only one. In any case, the car is either worth paying for or it isn't. I agree with you that the other cars don't deserve such a generous rebate, so if I ever become Premier of Ontario I promise to cancel rebates for all cars! Would that be better? Let's face the truth after all the millions given out (mostly to the very rich) across North America Hybrids and Electric cars are still a rarity, owned by those who really wanted the green cachet of the car or due to their own commitment to being eco-friendly. Right now the government isn't making much of a difference except for wasting taxpayer's cash. It's kind of like paying millionaires to join a golf course or play polo.

 

[RiverBrick]

. The family that buys 3 EV's is theoretically replacing 3 ICE vehicle's.

The Tesla is still only one.

.

Except opting for one vehicle is much more eco friendly than buying three and the Ontario rebate program gives generous rebates to certain hybrids that use their gas engine for over half the epa drive cycle and always use gas in the Winter, so you're only half replacing an ICE, at best.

Several times, you've referred to Tesla owners as millionaires. Where do you get this info from? The prior make of car most common for Tesla owners is Toyota. Are Toyota owners millionaires in your book as well?

If the rebate program is supposed to be for the environment, it makes no sense to cut out the car which is the best for the environment. Many Tesla owners are not rich, but are willing to stretch their budgets in order to avoid burning gas. That's where the rebate helps.

The Federal provincial governments spent over 5 billion propping up the Ontario ICE industry just from 2008-2012. Now it's a scandal if they grant a rebate to a green car?

 

[Duckjybe]

The family that buys 3 EV's is theoretically replacing 3 ICE vehicle's. The Tesla is still only one.

The 3 Ev's bought using rebates are either plug-in hybrids or short range EV's. The short range EV's would at most replace an ICE that doesn't drive very much and the hybrids produce 3 to 15 times more Co2 emissions than a long range Tesla. So one Tesla is equivalent to 10 Audi A3 etron's and yet the Tesla gets $3K and Audi gets $8K? Not good emissions reduction value for taxpayer money is it. And all because of optics. The fallacy is that wealthy people will buy a Tesla regardless. This is patently false. Wealthy people need incentives to change behaviour too. This is not all about helping people buy a car. This is about reducing carbon emissions as quickly as possible.

I will link to my graph showing inequity in the rebate program in case you haven't seen it.
View media item 115029

 

[kzod]

The 3 Ev's bought using rebates are either plug-in hybrids or short range EV's. The short range EV's would at most replace an ICE that doesn't drive very much and the hybrids produce 3 to 15 times more Co2 emissions than a long range Tesla. So one Tesla is equivalent to 10 Audi A3 etron's and yet the Tesla gets $3K and Audi gets $8K? Not good emissions reduction value for taxpayer money is it. And all because of optics. The fallacy is that wealthy people will buy a Tesla regardless. This is patently false. Wealthy people need incentives to change behaviour too. This is not all about helping people buy a car. This is about reducing carbon emissions as quickly as possible.

I will link to my graph showing inequity in the rebate program in case you haven't seen it.
View media item 115029

Well then it's an even bigger fail than I previously stated. If you want to reduce carbon emissions start taxing the crap out of gas and get most people to stop buying SUV's and trucks. Getting people into a boring ICE car like the Honda Fit and out of Ford Explorer's will have a much larger impact on emissions than encouraging the adoption of .5% ev's. Same for paying people to trade in their really old cars that continue to over pollute. And yes, I stand buy my statement that most Model S owners are Millionaires (or extremely dumb people). If you aren't worth over a million bucks you have no place buying a car that costs well over $100k. It's a great car but you shouldn't be putting all of your money into a depreciating asset.