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Reusing Boosters: Launch, Land, and Re-Launch

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I wonder at this point what the refurbishment schedule entails:
There is some information and a few hints out there. I saw a mention that the cost of refurbishment in 2020 was around $1 million, so that gives a sense of the scale of refurbishment. There's also this quote from Elon
I don’t want be cavalier, but there isn’t an obvious limit. 100+ flights are possible. Some parts will need to be replaced or upgraded. Cleaning all 9 Merlin turbines is difficult. Raptor [the engine for the upcoming Starship] is way easier in this regard, despite being a far more complex engine.
Note that he was talking about cleaning out turbines. I suspect that refurbishment of a Falcon 9 is pretty much like refurbishment of an airliner. Take it apart, look over the bits and pieces, clean anything that needs it, perform non-destructive testing on things that don't have any obvious visual cues for failure (e.g. magnetic particle inspect, dye penetrate inspection, eddy current, ultrasound, x-ray) - then put it all back together and test it.

It must be a lot of fun trying to figure out what refurbishment means for a booster that has 20 flights under its belt.

I'm sure that they had maintenance in mind when they designed Raptor.
 
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Yeah agreed. And I suspect that once they got enough complete teardowns/inspections/magnafluxes/X-rays/etc... were done they were able to determine that it wasn't necessary to do that until XX launches for each specific component, etc...

I seem to recall that one of the major considerations for the methane selection was the low-soot quotient for the turbo pump impact...
 
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It was never going to happen. Ariane has been attracting people for decades who are steeped in expendable rockets that launch at long intervals as part of a national prestige program. Those are not the people that you need to tackle rapidly-reusable rockets. Worse, they won't step aside to let others do the job. It's their job, their paycheck, their prestige, etc. They just aren't capable of thinking in terms of this new paradigm.

It's the same as legacy auto pivoting to electric cars; the foundations of the gasoline car industry extend too deep to be able to just pull up stakes and do something else.

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Not really.

The lifecycle of an Ariane rocket is a function of a mega sized, heavily state funded European conglomerate, all within that conglomerate trying to achieve a singular goal that isn'y really the priority for anyone except for perhaps Arianespace (all 200 employees...). The nobody walks away happy compromise decisions leaders of the various direct entities come to on overall direction are simply the most informed they can be when they're made and are heavily based on a) funding and b) demand. Comparing to the Falcon 9 lifecycle, its most important to recognize that falcon had both a) a backstop of effectively unlimited funding PLUS the absence of any other competing corporate interests and b) the internal need to huck an unprecedented amount of *sugar* into space.

I don't believe it's the case that Falcon 9 had "backstop of effectively unlimited funding". Falcon 9 came on the heels of the initial Falcon 1. The Falcon 1 program had enough to make it through 3 attempts to reach orbit, and failed all 3. In a last-ditch attempt. "the SpaceX team assembled the fourth rocket using available parts in six weeks as a last chance for the company", and made it to orbit.

So Elon at that time did not have unlimited resources in to dump in to the company. As he said, "At the time I had to allocate a lot of capital to Tesla and SolarCity, so I was out of money. We had three failures under our belt. So it's pretty hard to go raise money. The recession is starting to hit. The Tesla financing round that we tried to raise that summer had failed. I got divorced. I didn't even have a house. My ex-wife had the house. So it was a shitty summer."

That was 2008. Falcon 9 was already in the early planning/development stages at that point, as it would launch 2 years later in 2010. Things didn't really get to the point for Elon where he could pull a Bezos and dump endless cash into the company for another couple of years, and by that time the Falcon 9 had already been flying for some time.

While NASA did provide seed funding for Falcon 9, "The overall contract award was US$278 million to provide three demonstration launches of Falcon 9 with the SpaceX Dragon cargo spacecraft. Additional milestones were added later, raising the total contract value to US$396 million."

That's hardly "unlimited", especially since, "In 2011, SpaceX estimated that Falcon 9 v1.0 development costs were on the order of US$300 million. NASA estimated development costs of US$3.6 billion had a traditional cost-plus contract approach been used. A 2011 NASA report "estimated that it would have cost the agency about US$4 billion to develop a rocket like the Falcon 9 booster based upon NASA's traditional contracting processes".

a) ArianeGroup, very much like ULA, is a merger of two mega A&D corporations (its a relatively new entity FTR, but near as makes no difference the history is consistent with the point). Like Boeing and LM, Airbus and Safran are also publicly traded and have plenty of other priorities besides trying to design and launch rockets, and so internal funding is always a competition with other much more lucrative business units...not to mention shareholder demands. The state monies coming into the program--very much like various state funded activities in the US and around the world--come with some pretty specific expectations that aren't overly concerned with the commercial profitability (or not) of the product.

In other words, there's not a lot of opportunity for the decision-making leadership within Ariane to act on Big Think. It is in fact NOT at ALL that those people aren't capable of a new paradigm (in fact if you talk to them they all have aspired for A6 to be more than simply a better/upgraded A5), its that they simply aren't given the runway to execute on said paradigm.

b) Its worth reminding that there's an inflection point at which reusable rockets actually become a more cost effective idea than expendable. Much like everything ever in the history of volume anything, one needs to rightsize supply and demand. Just as there's no point in McLaren Automotive building a Toyota Corolla sized production line, there's actually not a lot of value in Ariane dumping $B's into significant reusability based on their and the global launch rates. It's worth highlighting again that, beyond Starlink, there really HASN'T been massive growth in global launch demand. F9 has been (more or less) continually growing, but largely at the expense of their competitors (A5 and to a degree Proton) declining.


Bottom line, Ariane simply doesn't have the ability to offset today's R&D with future launch cost savings of an internal mega constellation like SpaceX could, and that's the volume that's really needed to push their expendable/reusable inflection point to "duh, reusable". Beating the horse, finding mega dollar investors for mega space constellations is REALLY REALLY hard, because rich people out there whose job it is to make money on their investments have a hard time convincing themselves space is profitable.
(emphasis mine)

It's not a case of Falcon 9 and its reusability only being cost effective because SpaceX was willing to dump massive amounts of money in to it's ongoing use for Starlink. By the time Starlink first launched, Falcon 9 design had been bought and paid for nearly a decade. It's Starship that Elon is helping to fund with ongoing revenue with Starlink launches from it's workhorse Falcon 9.

So you can't really draw the conclusion that without Starlink-level demand it's not economically viable to develop a reusable launcher to compete in the overall current market. Even without Starlink, the Falcon 9 would have been just fine in existing market, having been developed for a fraction of what traditional vendors would have spent, and being able to reduce operational costs significantly due to reusability.

Would they have been able to generate billions for Starlink? No. Would they have carved out a significant chunk of the market, and been quite profitable? Most assuredly.

Anyway, obviously Ariane is still in a bad way and especially given the decline of the GEO (where they're still reasonably competitive with Falcon) will likely be relegated to state funded launches...as it seems to be the future of a post-Kuiper ULA. It's fair to criticize their corporate structure for getting them to this place...and perhaps the point is that's the inevitable conclusion of such a conglomerate? But to not only blame it on the lack of "the people" within Ariane to lean into the future but to actually accuse them of sabotaging growth? No. It's not anywhere that easy.


What's going to be most interesting is to compare this Ariane story to what Rocket Lab and Relativity can do with their 5m vehicles. Both are small [mostly] singularly focused entities--exactly the opposite of Airbus and Safran. Both are relatively well funded and can certainly spend money much more efficiently than Ariane's bureaucracy hierarchy. Both have the upside (to some customers) of "they're not SX", so there's more than just price as a selling point. Rocket lab IS publicly traded, which could be a hiccup, though Pete has generally spent his windfall pretty wisely so there's some shareholder confidence there. Most importantly though, neither have internal demand for mass to orbit, and so they're going to have to be HYPER efficient on spending getting to market to have any chance at being financially sustainable.
 
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IIRC before they did the first F9 landing they were already significantly cheaper than the competition, and the reliability numbers were going steadily up. I suspect that if they never re-used a rocket they could still own the market and the competition would just be making a different set of excuses.

Reusability is about getting SpaceX' costs down. For launches to third parties that's much higher margins, not incredibly cheap launches. For Starlink it is probably an enabler: Starlink is probably not viable if every launch was a new rocket.
 
IIRC before they did the first F9 landing they were already significantly cheaper than the competition, and the reliability numbers were going steadily up. I suspect that if they never re-used a rocket they could still own the market and the competition would just be making a different set of excuses.

Reusability is about getting SpaceX' costs down. For launches to third parties that's much higher margins, not incredibly cheap launches. For Starlink it is probably an enabler: Starlink is probably not viable if every launch was a new rocket.
Without reuse they would need to build an additional 2 first stages and 18 Raptors a week to meet their current flight rate.

Moderator correction: I think you meant 18 Merlins a week.
 
I don't believe it's the case that Falcon 9 had "backstop of effectively unlimited funding".

Regardless the conflation of timelines presented, Elon always had access to money; Elon could always raise funds. While SpaceX was historically never flush with cash, they never had to make a [materially impactful] unfavorable decision based on lack of money.

It's Starship that Elon is helping to fund with ongoing revenue with Starlink launches from it's workhorse Falcon 9.

Except there's no contention with the fact that Starlink is intended to fund Starship.


Restating the point, starting with the Big Picture:
  • Elon's grand vision has always been Mars
  • Elon recognized that money is one of the major roadblocks to Mars
  • Elon recognized that launch capability is one of the major roadblocks to Mars.
  • Elon's solution for both money and launch capability (mass an frequency) was to grow both in house
    • Elon's vision for money in has always been revenue from a satellite internet constellation--what we now know as Starlink
    • Elon's vision for money out + solving the launch capability problem has always been reusability.
All that boils down to the fact that Elon was willing to bet money [that others wouldn't] on developing reusable technology because he knew that's what was necessary to actually enable Starlink and beyond.

IIRC before they did the first F9 landing they were already significantly cheaper than the competition

It actually wasn't--before the first successful landing Falcon was flying lower spec vehicles that were actually more mass expensive than Proton and in-line with Ariane 5 dual manifest (remember, GEO was still driving the commercial market in the mid teens). It was only until FT came online with competitive mass lift and better pricing that SX really started to pull away from competitors.
 
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Regardless the conflation of timelines presented, Elon always had access to money; Elon could always raise funds. While SpaceX was historically never flush with cash, they never had to make a [materially impactful] unfavorable decision based on lack of money.



Except there's no contention with the fact that Starlink is intended to fund Starship.


Restating the point, starting with the Big Picture:
  • Elon's grand vision has always been Mars
  • Elon recognized that money is one of the major roadblocks to Mars
  • Elon recognized that launch capability is one of the major roadblocks to Mars.
  • Elon's solution for both money and launch capability (mass an frequency) was to grow both in house
    • Elon's vision for money in has always been revenue from a satellite internet constellation--what we now know as Starlink
    • Elon's vision for money out + solving the launch capability problem has always been reusability.
All that boils down to the fact that Elon was willing to bet money [that others wouldn't] on developing reusable technology because he knew that's what was necessary to actually enable Starlink and beyond.


Perhaps you missed the assertion you made that I highlighted and was responding to:

bxr140 said:
Ariane simply doesn't have the ability to offset today's R&D with future launch cost savings of an internal mega constellation like SpaceX could, and that's the volume that's really needed to push their expendable/reusable inflection point to "duh, reusable"

My discussion of Starship was to point out that it was what the constellation buildout was used to help fund.

The context of @JB47394 's post was that Ariane seems to have been unwilling or unable to pursue reusability, and your reply suggests that it's not adffordable to do so without a mega-constellation sized launch manifest on deck. My point is that SpaceX developed F9 prior to Starlink, lending credence to @JB47394 's point.
 
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The context of @JB47394 's post was that Ariane seems to have been unwilling or unable to pursue reusability, and your reply suggests that it's not adffordable to do so without a mega-constellation sized launch manifest on deck.

Yes, that is indeed exactly the point there, again coupled with the fact that someone like ArianeGroup would have to spend WAY more money to get an equivalent product as someone new and nimble like SX. (In other words, it's fair to criticize the efficiency with which an institution like AG can spend money; it's uninformed to assert they could have done it if they wanted.)

At the risk of stating the extreme obvious, nobody else in the history of space has developed an F9-like launch solution. ...and at the risk of stating the obvious corollary, nobody else (and indeed the sum of everyone else) in the history of space has ever had an F9-like launch demand, save for the 5th largest company in the world (who has yet to fully pull the thread).

THAT is why there are no other F9-like launchers.

Times may be changing of course (again, Rocket Lab and the others), but until they actually start flying we won't know if that's actually going to happen...and if so by how much.

My point is that SpaceX developed F9 prior to Starlink

And the part that you're either missing or sidestepping is that SpaceX developed the low cost, high rate F9 FOR Starlink. Again, remember that Elon has been pulling the thread of a satellite internet constellation for the better part of 20 years and Starlink (as we know) it for at least the better part of a decade. You're effectively suggesting that rather than a typical long term Elon vision, an aloof SX/Elon one day in the mid 'teens realized "Oh snap! We have this cheap ass rocket, let's use it to put up a mega constellation!!!1!1!11!".

Elon's brand is well praised for a) investing in the machine that builds the machine and b) prioritizing a hardware focused fail fast and iterate over the traditional space approach of solidifying long term requirements and honing paper designs before cutting metal. I'm actually surprised at the pushback here, as the timeline of F9-->Reusable F9-->Starlink 'First'-->Starship-->Starlink 'Next' is very obviously on brand.
 
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At the risk of stating the extreme obvious, nobody else in the history of space has developed an F9-like launch solution. ...and at the risk of stating the obvious corollary, nobody else (and indeed the sum of everyone else) in the history of space has ever had an F9-like launch demand

Again, Falcon 9 was built nearly a decade before Starlink. And it was doing more than just fine... it was carving out a nice chunk of the existing market for itself.


And the part that you're either missing or sidestepping is that SpaceX developed the low cost, high rate F9 FOR Starlink.

Do you have any references to support that?

Everythng I've read discusses Falcon 9 planning nearly a decade prior to Starlink planning.

Now sure, it may have been floating around in Elon's head that Starlink launches could provide funding, but he seems to have primarily wanted that funding for Starship & Mars:

Starlink, meanwhile, was publicly announced in January 2015 during a press conference held by Elon Musk at SpaceX’s Seattle office. The decision to enter the satellite production business was motivated by the belief in the large financial potential tied to satellite internet services compared to space-launched services. Musk stated that the goal of the venture was to generate a significant revenue stream to fund a city on Mars, underpinning SpaceX’s ambition to make humanity an interplanetary species by creating a self-sustaining colony on Mars.
Again, Falcon9 was already bought and paid for by that point. And was thriving quite well in the existing launch market.

You don't need a mega-constellation customer.

I'm glad you agree "it's fair to criticize the efficiency with which an institution like AG can spend money"... Ariane better adapt if they want to be competitive and/or survive.
 
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Ariane better adapt if they want to be competitive and/or survive.
Arianespace has at least gotten serious about reusing something. Their SUSIE vehicle is an interesting take on upper stages.

A 2m tall, 100kg, scale model was test-fired by ArianeGroup for the first time at their facility in Les Mureaux near Paris, on 25 October 2023. ArianeGroup is also working on a intermediate version of SUSIE, which would be smaller than the heavy version.

 
Regardless the conflation of timelines presented, Elon always had access to money; Elon could always raise funds. While SpaceX was historically never flush with cash, they never had to make a [materially impactful] unfavorable decision based on lack of money.

What? SpaceX, just like Tesla, was always starving for money. They had to do the impossible just to survive. Elon indeed did delay BFR aka interplanetary transporter aka Starship until he could figure out a way to pay for its development. Sure, in theory, he could have sold 80% of SpaceX stock and raised billions, but that a) would have been incredibly risky since that trick only works once and if you fail, then you’ve thrown your company away and b) no actually smart entrepreneur does stupid things like that.

So Elon thought hard about the problem and realized he could generate his own investment money by creating a telecom company 10 times the size of SpaceX, Ie Starlink. For that much bigger vision and much higher eventual revenue and profit, he could then raise $1B from Google at a much much lower valuation and kick off Starlink development. Starlink’s eventually IPO will then finally fund the bulk of Starship development (you ain’t seen nothing yet on those costs!).

All that boils down to the fact that Elon was willing to bet money [that others wouldn't] on developing reusable technology because he knew that's what was necessary to actually enable Starlink and beyond.
No. Reusable tech came well before Starlink was even a glimmer in Elon’s eye. It was needed for Mars, and he clearly has been thinking that far forward, but leave Starlink out of it. Starlink was a detour in SpaceX’s mission that was simply a means to an end of funding Starship and was born out of desperation for finding funding for Starship development.
 

All good that, but I believe in your dismayed rejection of my assertion that SX never had to make a materially compromising decision as a result of lack of funding, you forgot the part where you actually identify any such regrettable decision.

Also on the topic of funding, let's not forget the $1.6B SX that was awarded in 2008 for CRS, long before F9's first launch.

Reusable tech came well before Starlink was even a glimmer in Elon’s eye.

Any way you slice it, Elon's been pursuing satellite internet for as long as he's been interested in reusable rockets.

It's also fun to point out that Starlink has been a thing since before Falcon ever tried a landing attempt (let alone landed one).
 
All good that, but I believe in your dismayed rejection of my assertion that SX never had to make a materially compromising decision as a result of lack of funding, you forgot the part where you actually identify any such regrettable decision.

Not being argumentative, but it you are going to call out others for not supplying references you requested to support their argument, I'll point out that I asked for same of you:

And the part that you're either missing or sidestepping is that SpaceX developed the low cost, high rate F9 FOR Starlink.

Do you have any references to support that?

Instead, you just "loved" the post, without providing any evidence for your assertion, which honestly feels a bit snarky. You did similar to @Cosmacelf



Also on the topic of funding, let's not forget the $1.6B SX that was awarded in 2008 for CRS, long before F9's first launch.

Actually, although CRS funding to the tune of $1.6B was indeed awarded in '08, it was only AFTER the missions were completed that funds were disbursed. So, again, the F9 had ALREADY been developed.



Any way you slice it, Elon's been pursuing satellite internet for as long as he's been interested in reusable rockets.

It's also fun to point out that Starlink has been a thing since before Falcon ever tried a landing attempt (let alone landed one).

Not sure how that really factors in... F9 was clearly developed from the beginning with re-usability in mind, although they built and flew interim versions... not only did it allow for "failing fast", it garnered valuable test data and helped pay the bills. In the context of this discussion (the ability to develop a re-usable class rocket to serve the current launch market, without the need for a mega-customer), I'm not sure how that's germane. If we want to play timing games, I'll point out that F9 v1.1 was launched before Starlink was officially "a thing", and that version clearly demonstrated SpaceX was already pursuing reusabilty:

Falcon 9 v1.1 was notable for pioneering the development of reusable rockets, whereby SpaceX gradually refined technologies for first-stage boostback, atmospheric re-entry, controlled descent and eventual propulsive landing. This last goal was achieved on the first flight of the successor variant Falcon 9 Full Thrust, after several near-successes with Falcon 9 v1.1.
 
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Arianespace has at least gotten serious about reusing something. Their SUSIE vehicle is an interesting take on upper stages.




And, just as we are arguing discussing Ariane, this Ars article comes out saying that, largely because of the Ariane 6 mess, the ESA is changing it's approach to primarily go commercial for launch services, rather than the traditional approach.

EDIT: Actually @ecarfan already posted that article last night in the specific thread.
 
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Everythng I've read discusses Falcon 9 planning nearly a decade prior to Starlink planning.
Starlink announcement party was in Seattle in 2015 (I was there!), about 6 years after the first successful F9 launch. Elon can't keep his mouth shut; if he had been thinking about Starlink we'd have heard about it well before then. It didn't even have a name at the announcement. (In other words, I agree with you.)
 
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Starlink announcement party was in Seattle in 2015 (I was there!), about 6 years after the first successful F9 launch. Elon can't keep his mouth shut; if he had been thinking about Starlink we'd have heard about it well before then. It didn't even have a name at the announcement. (In other words, I agree with you.)

Right.... and according to an NSF article in 2005, "SpaceX is charging ahead with planned commercial launches for the Falcon 9 in less than two years. With almost 20 times the payload capacity as the Falcon 1, the Falcon 9 is already scheduled with an unspecified US Government payload for a second quarter 2007 launch date. They expect the first hold-down test stand firing of their Falcon 9 first stage engine array in the second quarter of 2006."

Although, they didn't make that timeline (F9 wouldn't launch until 2010), so F9 was already in development/planning for F9 a decade before Starlink was even announced, as you witnessed firsthand (jealous, BTW)...