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True, but it takes about four times as much renewable energy to make hydrogen for a fuel cell car as it takes to charge up a BEV to travel the same distance. Not to mention other issues, like lack of home refueling.
GSP
Sure, I get that. However this really felt to me like a glorified commercial instead of a relatively honest appraisal. And, in this case perhaps it was more that he wants to continue to use the car/house/grounds owner's other vehicles, instead of Toyota.
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
Just because FCEVs are incredibly moronic, doesn't mean they don't have some good characteristics. I don't think he was particularly praising the vehicle, I mean if you want to see him praising watch his Leaf and Tesla videos. I thought his account was pretty monotone, matter of fact, and really just skimmed through the Mirai. He seemed more interested in making an appealing video, than talking up the Mirai. *shrugs*
I should have been more precise, I was referring to praising the idea of FCVs. He puts forth the argument of wind turbines at service stations enabling hydrogen generation and refuelling at them, he doesn't then balance it about hydrogen from natural gas etc.
I just think more people will be pro-FCVs than before after watching it. Is that wrong? Well it depends if people are anti-BEVs as a result.
I agree with you about the skimming through the Mirai, I can't even recall features it has or dashboard.
I just think more people will be pro-FCVs than before after watching it. Is that wrong? Well it depends if people are anti-BEVs as a result.
I agree with you about the skimming through the Mirai, I can't even recall features it has or dashboard.
I don't think so. Robert Llewellyn's fanbase for these videos are already pro-EV. That's what almost all of these videos have been about. He did do another video series called Carpool which was sponsored by Toyota, so he might not want to bite the hand of a sponsor, but I thought it was a somewhat lukewarm review compared to what he's had to say about pure electrics like Tesla and the Leaf.
Look at this in perspective, Toyota may be a big player in the car biz and they are pushing the Mirai hard, but even if the hydrogen is made from natural gas and Toyota really makes an effort to sell them, the Mirai faces a lot of challenges to get accepted. More than Tesla faced with electric cars. Any alternative fuel vehicle faces the challenge that it requires a different fuel source. Electric cars have an advantage in that the alternative fuel source is ubiquitous. A FC vehicle doesn't have that advantage. It requires a parallel network of fueling stations to support it. It's a logistical problem more complex than the supercharger network problem. Tesla just needs to build the SCs taking advantage of locally provided power from the grid. The fuel is there, they are just putting in the interface.
For hydrogen, there has to be an entire supply chain built to provide it. And that supply chain leaks like a sieve. Supplying hydrogen to FCEVs is like bailing out a boat with a colander. Hydrogen leaks through everything, so the more it is transported and the longer it is stored, the less of it you have. That requires hydrogen plants be built near the stations. When the Model S was new, it may have been painful to take a long trip without superchargers, but it could be done. With a Mirai, if you get beyond the hydrogen station infrastructure, you're car is coming home on a truck. An experiment done in Los Angeles with hydrogen vehicles was not successful, the few stations that were built for the experiment rarely had more than enough hydrogen for one or two cars a day.
I suspect the Mirai will be a sensation for a while because Toyota will have the money to publicize the heck out of it, but it will be quietly discontinued as a failure in a year or two, possibly a bit longer. Car companies will try to push hydrogen for a while because it does leverage their expertise with engines and the oil business will like it because it consumes natural gas which is a glut in North America right now. But one somewhat cheery but tepid review from a big pro-EV advocate is not going to tip the world over to fuel cells.
Even if fuel cells somehow survive in the marketplace, I don't think they will do much damage to the BEV market. Demand for alternative fuel vehicles is relatively low today, but the millennials are very pro alternative and they also do research. The millennials are already far more pro-EV than any other generation and I don't think that's going to change. They are also the most anti-oil business of any generation and again, that won't likely change.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
I expect this is a very ignorant question, but why so much "stuff" under the bonnet? (Video @ 0:54 )
Not ignorant at all. Look under the hood of the the Leaf, or the i3...there's a lot of "stuff" that isn't an engine in there! Even the Model S looks pretty crowded when you remove the frunk cover. Master brake cylinder, ABS controller, washer, power electronics, radiators, HVAC components, vacuum pump, power steering motors, etc. The batteries, tanks, and fuel cell stack aren't even in the front of the Mirai...they are under the seats.
If you are comparing the front compartment of a Leaf or i3 to the Model S, keep in mind that the S is a much bigger car and has more room to place the items that Woof lists. The result is this the S has a capacious "frunk" and the other EVs do not.
I expect the Model 3 frunk to be able to hold a single airline roller bag, and not much more.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
Thanks, I suppose I had persuaded myself that those bits could be fitted in here & there rather than taking up the whole of the front bonnet area. I had also completely overlooked the fact that it is front wheel drive, so needs a motor in there - which I assumed would just be a "skinny little cylindrical thing"!!
even so, it still looks like a lot of stuff, additional to the brake fluid and washer cylinders etc?
I thought the fuel cell was that smart-looking flat laptop-sized thing on the top, and even then I thought it was "large" as I had assumed a fuel cell only needed to be the size of a match box from all the hype I'd heard about how amazing they are.
I also thought that the it looked as though someone had popped open the front bonnet ...
... until the camera zoomed in closer!
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
That flat laptop sized thing is the power control unit, similar to the flat PEM in a Tesla Roadster on top of the battery. In the Model S it is the cylinder that is next to the motor.
Here's a diagram of how the Mirai is laid out:
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
Thanks all, very informative
Wow! None of the benefits of simplicity of the BEV and therefore loss the potential of BEV's very high mileage (compared to ICE). You don't know until you know, of course
, but I had assumed that FC was just a bolt-on box (and H2 tank) that would charge a battery in an otherwise "regular" BEV; I know better now, thanks.
Tangential question: I see H2 being dismissed here because of difficulties fuelling the vehicle (both fuelling the vehicle, and storing H2 at the service station too). Why is H2 harder to refuel than LPG? I have never driven LPG, but looking at a map there are plenty of conventional petrol stations around here that also have LPG available - many more than decent electric charging locations, let alone superchargers!
EDIT: (i.e. I had, naively, assumed that H2 distribution would be as easy to add to existing service stations as LPG clearly has been)
Wow! None of the benefits of simplicity of the BEV and therefore loss the potential of BEV's very high mileage (compared to ICE). You don't know until you know, of course
, but I had assumed that FC was just a bolt-on box (and H2 tank) that would charge a battery in an otherwise "regular" BEV; I know better now, thanks.Tangential question: I see H2 being dismissed here because of difficulties fuelling the vehicle (both fuelling the vehicle, and storing H2 at the service station too). Why is H2 harder to refuel than LPG? I have never driven LPG, but looking at a map there are plenty of conventional petrol stations around here that also have LPG available - many more than decent electric charging locations, let alone superchargers!
EDIT: (i.e. I had, naively, assumed that H2 distribution would be as easy to add to existing service stations as LPG clearly has been)
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I think it is because when they put it in all the trunk it takes up too much cargo space (this design still has the drive battery take up space though). Also they can't put it too far in the rear because of risk of rear end collisions.
However, it reminds me of a hydrogen FCV safety article I read where one of the reasons compressed hydrogen is safer than gasoline is because it vents upward when there is a leak and burns out quickly. So if you put the tank in the trunk, it'll vent relatively harmlessly into the air even if punctured or if a cable had a leak.
The test below simulated a hydrogen connector leak from a 1.5kg tank (hydrogen example on the left burned out in around 2 minutes; Mirai holds total of 5kg, but split over two tanks so assuming 2.5kg it'll take ~3 minutes):
http://evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=482
In this case, that seems to not apply with the tank under the passenger compartment. Instead of a flamethrower that vents out into the open air or trunk compartment, it'll vent into the passenger compartment and torch the passengers!
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Thanks all, very informative
Wow! None of the benefits of simplicity of the BEV and therefore loss the potential of BEV's very high mileage (compared to ICE). You don't know until you know, of course
Tangential question: I see H2 being dismissed here because of difficulties fuelling the vehicle (both fuelling the vehicle, and storing H2 at the service station too). Why is H2 harder to refuel than LPG? I have never driven LPG, but looking at a map there are plenty of conventional petrol stations around here that also have LPG available - many more than decent electric charging locations, let alone superchargers!
EDIT: (i.e. I had, naively, assumed that H2 distribution would be as easy to add to existing service stations as LPG clearly has been)
H2 is a very, very small molecule, the smallest you can get. It's so small that no matter what you do for a container, it will leak out over time. Storage container design is just about slowing down the leakage rather than stopping it. So the longer you try to store it, the less you have. I wouldn't be surprised to hear stories of Mirai owners parking at the airport for a week and come back to an empty tank.
I would also be concerned with the main fuel tank right under the passenger compartment. Imagine the car sitting in the hot sun all day leaking hydrogen into the passenger compartment. Owner comes back and causes a spark, like lighting a cigarette and the car goes off like a bomb. The Toyota Hindenberg.
Hydrogen is odorless and invisible. When it burns, the flame is invisible too. It's possible they have designed things to make a better leakage path out the bottom of the car rather than upwards, but hydrogen will leak upwards unless there is a much better leakage path. Hydrogen is so light it won't stop rising until it either burns or leaves Earth's atmosphere completely.
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