Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Russia/Ukraine conflict

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
I made this point about the zombie-like nature of the Russian attack on Bakhmut back on Oct 30, 2022. Somehow, 'World War Z' seems appropriate (WFT do Ruzzians paint a 'Z' on their vehicles?)




This is not a new comparison if you've been reading this thread. The siege of Bakhmut is over 100 days of wasteful carnage now. The Russian war criminals in the Kremlin must be held accountable in The Hague.
The point the presenter I linked was making is that Russia has a habit of fouling things up in the first year of a major conflict then, when they truly engage, throw mounds of people at the problem. If he is remotely correct, we have not seen anything yet (including the previous posts you reference) and the masses to come will consume available ammunition. That was the point.

I just dug up Peter Z's videos on solar and EVs. I'm beginning to understand a bit more about where he is coming from and, from a lot of perspective's, he is on point. The sun does not shine the same everywhere which is important when analyzing return for solar power. The world had traditionally not been the best at doubling the supply of XYZ over a short period of time. These observations point towards the need for well thought out implementation of solar. The second on doubling capacity in a given area ignore the fact that Tesla has indeed doubled (actually, way more than) the world's supply of LION batteries and is hard at work securing the mining through end product production integration work necessary to continue to grow the supply of needed elements/components to meet it's goals. Sure, the legacy auto manufactures could not (would not) build useful compelling EVs but they seem to be trying now. It seems Peter spends most of his time analyzing the will to do things and not the ability to do them.

Putting that back on topic, Russia's willingness to throw millions of 17-40 year olds at the Ukraine problem may very well be tested over the next two years. I hope they lack either the will or ability to mobilize such numbers for such a useless cause.
 
Last edited:
I’m a little bit confused by the “we’re going to start WWIII” narrative. Reading the Twitter replies is unenlightening. Is it short for “Russia is going to use strategic nukes against the west”? Or is some other major power going to get involved in the conflict?
 
In all the analogies to previous Russian wars there are some major fundamental differences.

Russia was fighting a defensive war previously. Russia entered WW1 to defend Serbia. That is kinda sorta defensive. This is an offensive war.

Russia had a young population with a high fertility rate. Russia today has an old population with a very low fertility rate. Losing one son of 4 siblings in a defensive war is very different than losing your one and only child in an offensive war of choice.

Russia had major Western allies plus Ukraine on their side. Now they face Ukraine backed by a united Western alliance.
 
I could use some help here. YouTube's AI has seen fit to put a couple of this guy's videos on my feed. You have to get past the interviewer's love fest but this particular interview touches quickly on an awful lot of topics. The comments on Japan's trade negotiations with the US, the US' role on the high seas since WWII and China's population issues are wildly out of step with most of what I see and yet seem to be based on some simple to understand foundations. He most certainly paints a completely different picture for the next ten years.

Lastly, his comments that Russia's military efforts are always a SS at the start until they mobilize a gazillion people and throw them at the problem is concerning especially in light of the Wagner zombie post a little ways back in the thread.

Somebody posted another interview with Zeihan about 9 or 10 months ago. I think it was in this thread, but it may have been somewhere else.

In some areas I think he might have an accurate view of things, but in other areas I think he misses the mark. To put all the ICE that are on the road today a lot of iron and other resources needed to be mined, processed, and turned into products. A lot of that mining is shut down now because the resources have reached a steady state. Instead of old cars going into a landfill, they are recycled. The cloth and plastic are destroyed in the recycling process, but all the metals are recovered and reused. The steel in the next Ford F-150 you see may have been part of a 1965 Chevy Impala in a previous life, and may have started out as a US Navy destroyer or M-4 Sherman tank in WW II.

There is a tremendous amount of resources that go into an ICE. More than goes into an EV. When US automakers decided to outsource most of their sub-assemblies and R&D, they kept final assembly, engines, and in many cases transmissions. Everything else is made by a sub-contractor now. Tesla is unusual bringing a lot more back in house. The reason the kept the engine and transmission development was because these are the most complex parts of an ICE. The engineering that goes into a modern ICE engine is fantastic. And EVs don't need any of it.

The anti-EV lobby has made the case that EVs cost so much to build in the way or resources and energy that their carbon footprint is much higher than ICE. But they only make these comparisons by looking at every resource and energy input that goes into an EV, and ignoring a lot of the inputs that go into an ICE. For 80% of a car, whether ICE or EV, the resources and energy inputs are pretty much the same. ICE require a lot of iron to make the big engine block and the transmission which the EV doesn't need. The EV needs other materials other than iron and because the supply chain isn't completely full yet, those materials do need to be mined right now, but eventually when we reach steady state the batteries in a 2050 Ford will have started out in a 2015 Tesla.

One thing Zeihan is somewhat accurate about is that the transition to electric is going to be huge and it's going to take longer than a lot of the optimists think. It's a massive sea change that requires completely remaking our energy systems.

Another thing he's accurate about is that renewables is not going to be the answer for some places. Northern Europe has very short days in the winter and many places have wet summers with a lot of cloud cover. Solar is not going to be a cost effective answer to their energy needs. At least not domestic solar. Some of the coastal areas have a fair bit of wind, but that has limits too. Europe is a densely populated continent with high energy needs per person. Renewables are low concentration energy sources. If you look at the amount of electricity you can generate per acre of land (or sea), nuclear is at one end of the scale and solar and wind are at the other. There is only so much energy you can extract per acre and with Europe's large population, wind power is not the total answer. Norway is the exception because they have abundant hydro power.

One proposal I saw was for countries like Morocco to plaster their countryside with solar panels and run transmission lines to Europe. That could produce a fair amount of solar generated electricity for Europe, but we don't know what kind of environmental impact covering that much desert with solar panels will do. For one thing you are covering land that is mostly light brown with something that is mostly black. The goal is to convert the solar energy into as much electricity as possible, but the black surfaces will also absorb more heat than the land did and re-radiate it at night.

One thing that some of the countries in Europe may be looking to is Ukraine for NG supplies after the war. It will take a while to bring Ukraine's gas reserves online, but the pipelines to move it to Europe are already there. Ukraine has a lot of NG in the ground.

It's a powerpoint presentation, you can shut off should, and fast forward and read all the slides if you need to move through things quickly.

I listen because I like his sardonic wit.

Perun is like a good college professor. His presentations are information rich, but his presentation is humorous and entertaining.

Zeihan speaks very confidently about things he often doesn't understand very well. His stance on EVs and renewable energy in general makes me cringe.

He does seem to have it in for EVs and renewables. I'm a bit with him on renewables, but not as pessimistic. There are places where renewables are not going to fullfill all energy needs and places where it can.

The point the presenter I linked was making is that Russia has a habit of fouling things up in the first year of a major conflict then, when they truly engage, throw mounds of people at the problem. If he is remotely correct, we have not seen anything yet (including the previous posts you reference) and the masses to come will consume available ammunition. That was the point.

I just dug up Peter Z's videos on solar and EVs. I'm beginning to understand a bit more about where he is coming from and, from a lot of perspective's, he is on point. The sun does not shine the same everywhere which is important when analyzing return for solar power. The world had traditionally not been the best at doubling the supply of XYZ over a short period of time. These observations point towards the need for well thought out implementation of solar. The second on doubling capacity in a given area ignore the fact that Tesla has indeed doubled (actually, way more than) the world's supply of LION batteries and is hard at work securing the mining through end product production integration work necessary to continue to grow the supply of needed elements/components to meet it's goals. Sure, the legacy auto manufactures could not (would not) build useful compelling EVs but they seem to be trying now. It seems Peter spends most of his time analyzing the will to do things and not the ability to do them.

Putting that back on topic, Russia's willingness to throw millions of 17-40 year olds at the Ukraine problem may very well be tested over the next two years. I hope they lack either the will or ability to mobilize such numbers for such a useless cause.

The meme that the Russians tend to get it right after a year is a meme that I've seen in several places in just the last week. It is true for a few wars they have been in, but not all. They turned things around in WW II because they had two of the biggest industrial powers on the planet helping them stay in the fight. The Allies were pumping material into the USSR from three directions at once, one over the north part of Norway to Archangel, another route through Iran, and the third transporting aircraft from the US to the USSR by flying them from Nome, Alaska.

The Russians built their own tanks (though they also used American and British tanks some), but they were completely dependent on US trucks to move cargo and troops away from railheads. They were also completely dependent on American chemicals to make ammunition.

In WW II the Russians were also invaded. They traded land for time in the first two years of the war. They managed to make a stand at Moscow in December 1941, but they started losing ground again in 1942 as soon as the ground dried out. It wasn't until late 1942 that they finally were able to draw a line and hold it as Stalingrad. The Russians were finally able to pry Stalingrad back with the help of their greatest ally: winter.

Germany still tried to go on the offensive in 1943 when the ground dried out, but Kursk turned into a disaster for them and it was all downhill from there.

In WW II Russia was able to outlast the Germans. Germany was a much smaller country trying to conquer the largest country on Earth. Germany was able to make tremendous gains in the first two years, but they didn't have what it took to hold onto the territory. Because Germany didn't have enough troops to properly garrison the parts of the USSR they had conquered (Ukraine, Belarus, and the Baltics mostly), the Soviets were able to conduct a major insurgency in those areas that was a constant problem for the Germans.

In Chechnya Russia was up against an opponent that was much smaller than Ukraine without western resources helping them and it still took a prominent Chechen to switch sides for them to win.

There are many wars where Russia stuffed up the first year and never recovered. Afghanistan, the Russo-Japanese War, WW I, and the Crimean War.

Russia is also facing more resistance to drafting people than they ever did before. Conscription has been very unpopular in Russia for 30 years. The Russians dismantled the Soviet era apparatus to mass conscript a lot of people at once. The more people they draft the higher the risk of rebellion.

Also Russia's draft age population is not the largest cohort like it was in 1941. The draft age population is very small compared to the rest of the population. That population needs to work to support the large class of pensioners. If they get that generation killed off, their economy will collapse not long after the war.

I saw some statistics that said that Russia today has 3X the population that France did in 1914, but the number of draft age people in both countries is about equal. That's how small the younger generation is in Russia.

Russia in the past has been able to throw away a lot of lives in wars, but they can't anymore. They have a labor shortage, but they haven't really realized it yet.
 
...] Also Russia's draft age population is not the largest cohort like it was in 1941. The draft age population is very small compared to the rest of the population. That population needs to work to support the large class of pensioners. If they get that generation killed off, their economy will collapse not long after the war.

I saw some statistics that said that Russia today has 3X the population that France did in 1914, but the number of draft age people in both countries is about equal. That's how small the younger generation is in Russia.

Russia in the past has been able to throw away a lot of lives in wars, but they can't anymore. They have a labor shortage, but they haven't really realized it yet. [My underline.]

Do you think the Russian Dictator and his closest minions care if they have a labour shortage? I don't.
 
Ben Hodges seems really disappointed...

And according to him it's going to be some 6 months before Ukraine will receive any GLSDB missiles... That part is at the 5:16 mark in the video below:


But according to this article from a Ukrainian site it's going to take even longer. They say ~9 months according to an article by Bloomberg...

And here's that piece from Bloomberg (paywalled):
 
Last edited:
Also Russia's draft age population is not the largest cohort like it was in 1941. The draft age population is very small compared to the rest of the population. That population needs to work to support the large class of pensioners. If they get that generation killed off, their economy will collapse not long after the war.

I saw some statistics that said that Russia today has 3X the population that France did in 1914, but the number of draft age people in both countries is about equal. That's how small the younger generation is in Russia.

Russia in the past has been able to throw away a lot of lives in wars, but they can't anymore. They have a labor shortage, but they haven't really realized it yet.

I don't think the Russian demographic situation is yet as dire as many suggest. The median age in Russia is 40 years. The median age in the US is 39 years. The elderly population was hit quite hard by COVID in Russia- possibly hard enough to offset the youth emigration and casualties from the war in Ukraine.
 
I don't think the Russian demographic situation is yet as dire as many suggest. The median age in Russia is 40 years. The median age in the US is 39 years. The elderly population was hit quite hard by COVID in Russia- possibly hard enough to offset the youth emigration and casualties from the war in Ukraine.

Russia has had an imbalance between men and women for decades. The life expectancy for men is low. At the start of the war there were 10.5 more women than men. Since the war began men have been fleeing the country if they can. Something that wasn't possible in the past when they were drafting young men.

The men of prime military age 18-30 are only 8-10 million men. The cohort a bit older is a larger part of the population, but men in Russia are often in declining health by the time they reach their 30s.

Demographics of Russia - Wikipedia
 
Russia has had an imbalance between men and women for decades. The life expectancy for men is low. At the start of the war there were 10.5 more women than men. Since the war began men have been fleeing the country if they can. Something that wasn't possible in the past when they were drafting young men.

The men of prime military age 18-30 are only 8-10 million men. The cohort a bit older is a larger part of the population, but men in Russia are often in declining health by the time they reach their 30s.

Demographics of Russia - Wikipedia

Yes, widespread alcoholism among Russian men definitely takes it's toll. It would be interesting to know the average age of the men conscripted into the military. From a purely economic perspective, I'm not sure that the gender imbalance among the 55+ year old segment makes much difference though.
 
Russia has had an imbalance between men and women for decades. The life expectancy for men is low. At the start of the war there were 10.5 more women than men. [My underline.] Since the war began men have been fleeing the country if they can. Something that wasn't possible in the past when they were drafting young men.

The men of prime military age 18-30 are only 8-10 million men. The cohort a bit older is a larger part of the population, but men in Russia are often in declining health by the time they reach their 30s.

Demographics of Russia - Wikipedia
Yes, widespread alcoholism among Russian men definitely takes it's toll. It would be interesting to know the average age of the men conscripted into the military. From a purely economic perspective, I'm not sure that the gender imbalance among the 55+ year old segment makes much difference though. [My underline.]
Exactly. The female surplus doesn't start until around the age of 38+... But also taking into account those men that have either fled or are KIA or wounded that might look different. But it isn't just men that have left the Dictator's Russia. Many younger women have apparently left too... But I haven't seen any numbers on the female 'expat quota'...
 
  • Like
Reactions: SmokyPeat and iPlug
Doesn't matter much if they care or not. Economic reality is going to bite you whether you're paying attention or not. Ignoring it will likely make the bite worse.
So... Anyone feel like 'guesstimating' when this might start having the kind of impact that could sway a sufficiently large part of the Dictator's 'repression machine'?... Sufficiently large in that it may give a rebellion against the Dictator a clear upper hand...
 
I’m a little bit confused by the “we’re going to start WWIII” narrative. Reading the Twitter replies is unenlightening. Is it short for “Russia is going to use strategic nukes against the west”? Or is some other major power going to get involved in the conflict?
Mostly this is Russian attempts to scare the West into not supporting Ukraine. So most of this narrative originates in Russia through all sorts of channels. Unfortunately it is amplified by the normal useful fools in the West.

In part one reason why the Western alliance is being very calibrated and progressive in its support for Ukraine, is so as to not give Russia even the slightest excuse to go nuclear. There is of course no excuse to go nuclear in pursuit of a failed offensive war of choice, but nonetheless the Western alliance is making absolutely sure there is no excuse. The West, specifically NATO+EU, are also making it very clear that any nuclear escalation by Russia would have dramatic consequences for Russia. There are other reasons for the West's calibration of its response ramp, but this is a significant one.

So far Russian attempts to play the nuclear blackmail card have failed. Long may that situation persist.
 
I guess it comes down to throwing males at survival today as opposed to keeping them to generate the next generation for tomorrow. I suspect P will throw them at the problem he faces now and look to replace them with people he takes from other lands. It really is a sick calculus and sad that such large powers reduce themselves into thinking within such small boxes.
 
Yes, widespread alcoholism among Russian men definitely takes it's toll. It would be interesting to know the average age of the men conscripted into the military. From a purely economic perspective, I'm not sure that the gender imbalance among the 55+ year old segment makes much difference though.

Alcoholism is a slow killer. Someone who dies at 55 from long term alcoholism is probably not very healthy at 35. There are stories that the 30-45 years olds among the mobiks are in pretty bad health to a large degree. North America and Western Europe are two parts of the world where people tend to age much slower than they used to. My parents were much older than I (both were in their 40s when I was born). I look at their friends when I was a teenager and they all had health problems that neither I nor my peers have now and I'm the same age they were. My father aged slowly. He looked older but he was in good health up into his 90s. My mother was starting to break down by 60.

My parents never smoked (rare for their generation), everyone in my family is allergic to tobacco so that helped. Neither of them really drank either. A glass of wine once a week or so was about all they drank. They were also careful about what they ate before it became a fad. Longevity genes helped too, I have relatives on both sides that made it over 100.

A lot of people I know in their 50s and 60s are still physically in good shape and fairly active. I know some people older than that who are pretty active and healthy too.

I also know a woman who is a Russian immigrant (from Tajikistan, but ethnically Russian) who married an American (her family emigrated when she was a young teen) because she says even among American Russians the men tend to be alcoholic and abusive. He younger brother is in his 30s, but looks like he's in his 50s.

Drawing on the older male population in Russia can get some warn bodies (probably temporary) on the front line, but they aren't going to be very good fighters. The alcoholics will be either finding whatever alcohol they can and getting pickled, or they will be suffering from DTs as they dry out. And even if they are functional drunks, they will have other health problems that aren't going to leave them with much stamina when the fighting starts.

So... Anyone feel like 'guesstimating' when this might start having the kind of impact that could sway a sufficiently large part of the Dictator's 'repression machine'?... Sufficiently large in that it may give a rebellion against the Dictator a clear upper hand...

Unfortunately for the time span of the war the collapse will probably be over the next decade and into the next generation. I strongly doubt things in Russia will go the route of the Paraguayan War of the 1860s.
Paraguayan War - Wikipedia

The hit to the population of the country was so severe that the country still hasn't recovered. Paraguay lost most of its male population. Estimates of the losses range from 7% of the pre-war population to as much as 69%.

Russia might lose as high as 1% of its population dead if they really continue the WW I tactics, but as the losses mount the probability of revolt increases. This is the country that exited WW I because the army refused to fight any longer and it triggered revolts back home. I think it likely that there will be revolt before they get to 1% dead. Though the losses among the draft age population could end up being a much more significant percentage. Their casualty rate now is probably around 2% of the 18-30 male population, though that is spread out among a larger age group than just that cohort.