Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Russia/Ukraine conflict

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Totally agree on this last part. It is very likely when Ukraine’s new armored vehicles get into action there will be a big reversal on the front.

Russia right now is just throwing bodies and last centuries left over munitions at Ukraine.




But we’re going to have to deal with Putin’s replacement soon enough. Seems unlikely he’s going to live another 5 years and it’s pretty unlikely he will be replaced by anything other than another despot. The only real hope is Russia‘s military is so completely thrashed that Russia can no longer influence events outside their own border.

Russia could also have a civil war and balkanize. The various provinces have different cultures from Moscow. As Moscow gets weaker, they are going to start wanting to break free. Chechnya is likely to be first. If they succeed, others will follow.

My ideal scenario is Moscow is the capital of a rump state which has significantly less power than Russia and it can go turn into a backwater if it wants to and the world will pretty much ignore it.
 

Won't be popular here but I thought Fiona Hill's suggestion here sounded realistic. Russia wins some land but only for a period of time. They would obviously keep it but provides a nice de-escalating off ramp for all parties IMO.


Or we could just watch them kill each other's 20 year old sons I suppose... and hope Russia don't work out how to google "how to build a drone"...

Chances of Russia trying to land grab again must be <5%? The strategy has worked brilliantly (if you ignore the death and destruction) - just don't get greedy people.
 
Lots of people are saying that if there is peace Russia will just try again. Imo this seems unlikely. Russian economy is in the drain, their army will time to recover. Ukraine will keep upgrading their army and prepare for an Russian attack. If Russia couldn't win with the element of surprise before Ukraine's army became the most experienced army in modern warfare, before they got all those modern weapons etc they will not want to fight again for a long time.

But for now, both countries are not willing to accept each other terms, so the fighting will continue until one or both sides thinks fightings sucks more than pulling back on their terms.
 
Lots of people are saying that if there is peace Russia will just try again. Imo this seems unlikely. Russian economy is in the drain, their army will time to recover. Ukraine will keep upgrading their army and prepare for an Russian attack. If Russia couldn't win with the element of surprise before Ukraine's army became the most experienced army in modern warfare, before they got all those modern weapons etc they will not want to fight again for a long time.

But for now, both countries are not willing to accept each other terms, so the fighting will continue until one or both sides thinks fightings sucks more than pulling back on their terms.

There is a good chance that in 3-6 months Ukraine will have most of their territory back on their own terms. The may not be able to take back Crimea directly, but they can lay siege to the peninsula making it very expensive for Russia to supply it. Once Russia is pushed back to their borders they can continue to harass the Ukrainians by lobbing artillery shells over the border and the occasional rocket or drone attack. The Ukrainians will take out artillery as they find it as well as Russian supply bases.

At that point even the most gullible members of the public are going to be asking why Russia is still fighting the war. If Russia gets something from this war, even if it's only a sliver of Ukraine, the Kremlin will make a big deal about their great victory and the babushkas will buy into it. If Russia spends more than a year at war, loses all their inherited Soviet hardware, a couple hundred thousand dead, and a giant hole in the economy for absolutely nothing, the likelihood of a popular uprising that changes Russia towards something better than they have now (from our perspective) is much more likely.

In one of the raw footage interviews for PBS' Frontline I saw one of the people interviewed pointed out Russia tends to do the right thing when they have exhausted all the wrong avenues.

The more humiliating the defeat, the more likely Russia will change in ways that this sort of militarism will never happen again.
 
There is a good chance that in 3-6 months Ukraine will have most of their territory back on their own terms. The may not be able to take back Crimea directly, but they can lay siege to the peninsula making it very expensive for Russia to supply it. Once Russia is pushed back to their borders they can continue to harass the Ukrainians by lobbing artillery shells over the border and the occasional rocket or drone attack. The Ukrainians will take out artillery as they find it as well as Russian supply bases.

At that point even the most gullible members of the public are going to be asking why Russia is still fighting the war. If Russia gets something from this war, even if it's only a sliver of Ukraine, the Kremlin will make a big deal about their great victory and the babushkas will buy into it. If Russia spends more than a year at war, loses all their inherited Soviet hardware, a couple hundred thousand dead, and a giant hole in the economy for absolutely nothing, the likelihood of a popular uprising that changes Russia towards something better than they have now (from our perspective) is much more likely.

In one of the raw footage interviews for PBS' Frontline I saw one of the people interviewed pointed out Russia tends to do the right thing when they have exhausted all the wrong avenues.

The more humiliating the defeat, the more likely Russia will change in ways that this sort of militarism will never happen again.
If Ukraine can reach the Sea Of Azov coast, then they can likely also drop the Kerch strait bridge completely (as it is likely within HIMARS range then), then Ukraine will also be in range of the Sevastpol port. That would make Sevastpol harbour untenable for Russian vessels, and all the Crimean airfields untenable for Russian aircraft. And the Crimea water supply in Ukraine control. In that situation I cannot see how Russia can supply Crimea in any way. A real concern has to be Russia using the six reactors of the ZNPP nuclear power station as a hostage if such a situation begins to develop.

Unless something changes in the Russian leadership team I fear that there will be an awful lot of fighting still to come, and some even worse situations than we have seen thus far.
 
Or we could just watch them kill each other's 20 year old sons I suppose... and hope Russia don't work out how to google "how to build a drone"...

Chances of Russia trying to land grab again must be <5%? The strategy has worked brilliantly (if you ignore the death and destruction) - just don't get greedy people.

Lots of people are saying that if there is peace Russia will just try again. Imo this seems unlikely.

The only lesson from this ordeal is that Russia doesn't count its losses so any common logic does not apply. They will try again as soon as they have the opportunity, let's take away that door forever.
 
If Ukraine can reach the Sea Of Azov coast, then they can likely also drop the Kerch strait bridge completely (as it is likely within HIMARS range then), then Ukraine will also be in range of the Sevastpol port. That would make Sevastpol harbour untenable for Russian vessels, and all the Crimean airfields untenable for Russian aircraft. And the Crimea water supply in Ukraine control. In that situation I cannot see how Russia can supply Crimea in any way. A real concern has to be Russia using the six reactors of the ZNPP nuclear power station as a hostage if such a situation begins to develop.

The world reaction to Russia causing a radiation leak at ZNPP would probably be close to as bad as if they used a tactical nuclear weapon. China might cut them off at that point. But if they're desperate, who knows what they'll do.

Putin has put himself and Russia in a Kobiashi Maru scenario. There is no reasonable scenario where Russia can win this war. Their only hope would be for the west to give up supplying Ukraine and even if they did that it would likely just devolve into a long standing stalemate at this point. Russia doesn't have the equipment, troop quality, or supplies to mount a real offensive at this point. They are trying to conduct an offensive, but it's so weak it's not obvious they are on the offensive.

With time Russia can improve the output of it's ammunition and small arms, but they aren't going to be able to build enough vehicles to replace all those lost at anything approaching the same quality as the original equipment. They probably can't produce enough vehicles to keep up with combat losses and build up forces too.

Their troop quality has an even worse chance of improving. They can create masses of untrained, unmotivated people who can be prodded into suicide charges, but they don't have an NCO corp and they have lost a lot of officers. They also got most of their trainers killed in Ukraine. So they no longer have the ability to train an army. That's going to take a decade or more of peacetime to rebuild, if ever.

Russia can't win. They can hold on and try to hope for a miracle, but once Ukraine has the ability to go on the offensive again, their window for miracles goes from small to infinitesimal.

Russia is going to hit a manpower problem eventually. In WW II the USSR could afford to throw away lives. The Soviet Union had a population 20 million larger than the United States. Now the US is more than 2X the size of Russia. In 1939 the USSR had 169 million people and the US 148 million. The demographics of the USSR then had a big cadre of draft age men. They now have a smaller population with a small cadre of draft age men. Russia today has about 10 million men between 18 and 32, they have well over 15 million women and about 10 million men over 60. They do have a decent cadre of men 32-55, but those people are more likely to be the experienced workers they need to keep the economy going.

The more working age men they draft, the fewer people they have for other things like building weapons and just keeping the economy going. The older the people they draft the more they are going to have to deal with health problems that will make their forces less capable. In the west we are used to people well into their 50s or 60s being healthy and active, but that's an anomaly of human history. We have the benefits of public health education programs, a high quality diet available, and vices like smoking and drinking are on the decline.

Russia doesn't have any of that. The upper middle class often live a western lifestyle, but they are a minority, and a lot of them left the country. Most Russian men are in pretty bad shape by the time they reach 50 and are in clear health decline by 40. The life expectancy for Russian men is among the lowest in the world.

For the first time in Russian history Russia doesn't have virtually unlimited pool of young men they can throw into a meat grinder, but the leadership in Moscow hasn't figured that out yet.

Unless something changes in the Russian leadership team I fear that there will be an awful lot of fighting still to come, and some even worse situations than we have seen thus far.

Unfortunately I think you're right. Russia can still cause a lot of pain and suffering for Ukraine as their army fails.
 
Abstract
We use a unique high-frequency Russian customs dataset to evaluate the impact of international sanctions on Russia – focusing on Russian crude oil and oil products exports, as they are the key sources of export earnings and government revenues. We study the effects of two focal sanctions measures – the EU embargo and G7 price cap on Russian seaborne crude oil, which both took effect on December 5, 2022. We find that Russia was able to redirect crude oil exports from Europe to alternative markets such as India, China, and Turkey but that export earnings were curbed substantially by the sizable discounts that Russian exporters had to accept in market segments where the impeding EU embargo lowered demand, e.g., exports from Baltic Sea ports – a dynamic that only became more pronounced after the embargo and price cap’s taking effect. However, we do not find crude oil discounts as large as those reflected in Urals prices towards the end of 2022. In particular, prices in market segments that are unaffected by lower European demand, e.g., exports from Russia’s Pacific Ocean ports, have not dropped in a meaningful way and shipments do not appear to comply with the price cap. What the EU embargo and G7 price cap have, thus, triggered is a fundamental fragmentation of the market for Russian crude oil. Based on our analysis, we conclude that a central focus of policy going forward should be the enforcement of existing sanctions on Russian oil – along with the lowering of the oil price cap. As far as oil products are concerned, we show that it is significantly less feasible to redirect exports away from the European market. This suggests that the EU embargo on oil products, which took effect on February 5, 2023, will prove to be a powerful additional tool to further curb Russian export and fiscal revenues.


 
Or we could just watch them kill each other's 20 year old sons I suppose

Do you seriously think that giving Putin a win (any win) will result in FEWER 20-yr-olds dying in the future? Or is it more.

BTW, it was Neville Chamberlin who achieved 'peace in our time', and waved a signed document around in the air. What was that piece of paper worth?

Putin, and Russia, has to go. Full stop.
 
Won't be popular here but I thought Fiona Hill's suggestion here sounded realistic.
It's not of course. Realistic is driving Russia out of the country they invaded and not giving them any reward for their aggression. Allowing them to take Crimea back in 2014 didn't stop them from wanting more, something you and Elon seem to forget.
 
In 1939 the USSR had 169 million people and the US 148 million. The demographics of the USSR then had a big cadre of draft age men.

How many ?
And how many died in WW II ?

Addendum: I found this graph of USSR demographics in Statista

Screenshot 2023-02-28 at 7.17.44 AM.png
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: EVCollies
Putin, and Russia, has to go. Full stop.

This talk is just as dangerous as the Russians saying the war ends when Ukraine ceases to exist and becomes apart of Russia.

Russia needs to get out of Ukraine, that's the end goal here. Not the destruction of Russia.

Certainly agree with Putin needs to go, but he needs to go through an organic internal movement. The Russian people need to oust him, not us/NATO. Anything else will result in further validating the propaganda the Russians have been putting out that the West is out to destroy Russia, etc in the minds of the Russian people.
 
Do you seriously think that giving Putin a win (any win) will result in FEWER 20-yr-olds dying in the future? Or is it more.

BTW, it was Neville Chamberlin who achieved 'peace in our time', and waved a signed document around in the air. What was that piece of paper worth?

Putin, and Russia, has to go. Full stop.
I think fewer kids would die if a deal was done because I don't see them occupying Poland etc. anytime soon.

1938 was very different. Biggest? military in the world at the time versus what you all seem to agree is Russia's rusty WW2 bombs.

Chances of a perfect clean win seem to be around 50%. Small chances of nukes, worse leader than Putin, 20 year war etc. all add up.
 
Who wants to make a deal?
Consider what is happening to the Ukranians in the Russian occupied territories. As far as I can gather they deport the children to be re-educated and given to Russian families (to be 'civilized'?). Adults who try to remain themselves (Ukrainian) are tortured and killed. Anything Ukrainian is forbidden, destroyed, annihilated. This is about how the earlier Americans treated the Indians, or what the NAZIs did in Eastern Europe and to their Jewish population. We call this now Genocide.
This is not some future scenario that might happen, no this is going on openly and with great fanfare (Putin' speeches) right now in the occupied regions.
So, as Zelensky stated a few times, if Russia wins this war Ukraine ceases to exist. But not only that, the people of Ukraine will be tortured out of existence. Is that what those who advocate some sort of negotiation/deal/cease fire want? Even only for the parts under Russian occupation?
Perhaps we can learn from history - perhaps not.
 
This talk is just as dangerous as the Russians saying the war ends when Ukraine ceases to exist and becomes apart of Russia.

I mean the Putin / Russia have to go from Ukraine. You think talk is dangerous? I suppose, when you jump to the wrong conclusion, fanning your own fears. That's a losing game.

Let's be clear: Ukraine will evict Russian invaders from every single square centimeter of Ukrainian soil, then peace talks can be arranged. My preference is in The Hague, concurrent with Putin's war crimes trial.
 
Putin has put himself and Russia in a Kobiashi Maru scenario. There is no reasonable scenario where Russia can win this war. Their only hope would be for the west to give up supplying Ukraine and even if they did that it would likely just devolve into a long standing stalemate at this point. Russia doesn't have the equipment, troop quality, or supplies to mount a real offensive at this point. They are trying to conduct an offensive, but it's so weak it's not obvious they are on the offensive.
This is western way of thinking. In Putin's/Russian way of thinking, Russia cannot lose. It's unthinkable. Russia will never lose. They will just have to try even harder until they eventually win. Russia is great and powerful and cannot be defeated. Not by western weapons, not by Ukrainian determination. Yeah it sucks that the economy is taking a hit, yeah it sucks that people die, but the war must not be lost. If they lose the dream is Russia is dead and the dream of Russia is worth more than a hundred million people in poverty, hundreds of thousands dead and injured. 🤡

Slowly they are sobering up from this illusion. Things are not going as predicted, every question raised is silenced, but soon the silencing becomes to obvious. It will take a long time, imo the war will be long lost before they are ready to accept reality. Say what you want about capitalism/classic liberal democracy, but at least you can document what happens, question it, have debates etc and there usually is some kind of feedback mechanism, even it is weak and have time delays, at least it is there.