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Russia/Ukraine conflict

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Superb analysis of Russia aviation issues, what is interesting is that this failure was not foreseen by either Ukraine or western analysts.
 

Superb analysis of Russia aviation issues, what is interesting is that this failure was not foreseen by either Ukraine or western analysts.

All intelligence analysis makes assumptions. Good intelligence digs into what they can and then tries to fill in the gap with educated guesses. But many times intelligence organizations miss some things that are right in front of them because they don't have anyone on staff who thinks to look at that area. So they make assumptions that the capability in that area is just like their own military.

There are two areas where almost all the intelligence organizations got it badly wrong because they assumed it worked for Russia much the same way as in the west. Those two areas were supply logistics and air power.

Western combat pilots get about 200 hours of flight time a year while VKS pilots get less than 100 on average. In addition western pilots spend many, many hours in simulators training for every problem the instructors can think of. Russia has very few simulators and most pilots never see the inside of one.

Western pilots also train for large scale operations with a lot of formation training and combined unit tactics. Russians usually train singly or in pairs. Operating in large formations is unusual and most pilots have no experience flying formation. The largest group of Russian planes I have heard about the entire war was 10. Most of the time they fly singly or in pairs.

RUSI started looking at this problem over a year ago. I found this article from 2022 interesting too
Is the Russian Air Force Actually Incapable of Complex Air Operations?

The article you posted touches on some of the same points.

They mention the CAP being done by Mig-31s and Su-35s. There are only a relative handful of fighters in the Russian arsenal capable of carrying those long range air to air missiles. Flying them 24/7 like that, they are putting a lot of hours on the airframes and engines. At this point they are probably having readiness problems keeping up the CAP.

Trent Telenko has been very critical of the failures of western intelligence to realize that Russia doesn't possess many logistics elements that are so common as to be like wallpaper to western armies. Russia's truck fleet was too small to do the job they were asked to do. As a result they have stripped Russia of civilian trucks which will begin to hurt the Russian economy, especially if the sanctions aren't lifted after the war is over. Civilian trucks also can't stand up to the beating trucks get in combat zones, so most of those trucks aren't returning home.

Russia also doesn't make use of pallets or fork lifts in their military supply chain. Things that take one person with a forklift to do instead are done by a team of 20 guys using manual labor. The entire western supply chain is built around the logistics of pallets, forklifts, and containers. The Russians are still doing things the same way they did in WW II.

Western intelligence completely missed this.

During the Cold War NATO was concerned that the large Russian army was going to roll into Europe and not stop until they got to the English Channel, but realistically once their WW II trucks wore out, they didn't have the logistics capability to get more than about 100 Km from the end of the Russian guage rail network without running out of supplies.
 

Superb analysis of Russia aviation issues, what is interesting is that this failure was not foreseen by either Ukraine or western analysts.
Wow - this seems quite balanced and well-written. Not often we see clear-headed analysis. Thanks for posting.
 
The most interesting
Wow - this seems quite balanced and well-written. Not often we see clear-headed analysis. Thanks for posting.
A very interesting implication is that nato has a glaring hole in air defense and that our touted air superiority will have little impact on stand-off munitions of many sorts. This we have an inability to assist Ukraine in this regard
 
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@wdolson trent makes too big a deal of the logistics weakness of Russia. Napoleon moved a massive army to Moscow on horses and foot. Vietnam moved equipment for an entire corps on the various components of the ho Cho Minh trail and as someone that has been in that area after that war I can assure you it doesn’t get much more rigorous. The plains and forest of Europe are simple by comparison.

The USA has always been starved for human capital and that drove many of our industrial innovations. Russia mostly hasn’t. In regards to this conflict Russia is in close proximity to rail and thus it is not impacted.

Ukraine does not even target the logistics ability of Russia despite the supposed weakness Trent harps on. Why? They are not idiots. Answer it is a robust network with 3 choke points . They took one out. They will undoubtedly move to target the others this summer. It is the bridges rather than truck fleet that is the vulnerability.

Ukraine has spent February and March and now April targeting ew systems and artillery. Which tells you what Ukraine thinks they need to do to change the war.

The telling point from the CNA report is that nato has the exact same vulnerabilities as Ukraine in regards to certain defensive needs. Also since Russians are not idiots I would expect them to incorporate lessons learned and focus future training on more integrated attacks just as the Russian army does effective attacks with artillery and infantry. During the Korean War the Russian Air Force were not complete idiots and were effective.

For Ukraine it is clear why they are ratcheting up calls for air defense help. They are nearly depleted. The lessons in this report would strengthen those wanting to supply missile based defense instead of f16.
 
The most interesting

A very interesting implication is that nato has a glaring hole in air defense and that our touted air superiority will have little impact on stand-off munitions of many sorts. This we have an inability to assist Ukraine in this regard

NATO has been able to provide some good short range AD, but there isn't much there for medium and the long range systems are more for ballistic missile defense.

Everyone builds the systems for the war they expect to fight. The US was caught flat footed in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan because it never built a force for fighting an insurgency war. In Vietnam they brought A-26s built in WW II out of retirement for the COIN (counter insurgency) mission. In Afghanistan and Iraq they modified and built new vehicles to defend against IEDs. A lot of those vehicles have been given to Ukraine because the US is dumping them from service. They don't fit into US war doctrine anymore.

NATO strategy involves overwhelming air power to knock out enemy air and air defense in the first few days, then control the skies. Russia and the USSR before them knew this and built a force to make doing that as costly to NATO as possible. Soviet, Russian, and former Soviet armies have a lot of AD because it's been long standing Russian/Soviet doctrine. NATO doesn't because it's not part of the doctrine except for close air defense to pick off the occasional aircraft that slips through the fighter cover.

@wdolson trent makes too big a deal of the logistics weakness of Russia. Napoleon moved a massive army to Moscow on horses and foot. Vietnam moved equipment for an entire corps on the various components of the ho Cho Minh trail and as someone that has been in that area after that war I can assure you it doesn’t get much more rigorous. The plains and forest of Europe are simple by comparison.

An early 19th century army used horses instead of trucks and the army foraged for food rather than bring their own. The French developed a method of canning food in glass jars by 1809 and they had some canned food on their march on Moscow in 1812, but the army still supplemented its rations by stripping anything edible from the countryside. The transport vehicles had to forage for food too. They weren't bringing hay.

The North Vietnamese were fighting an insurgency war which has a different supply footprint from an army trying to take and hold territory. Insurgents are only equipped with weapons they can carry. The largest equipment might be a machine gun or a mortar. The North Vietnamese also had a lot of manpower to carry ammunition and light arms to the front.

The USA has always been starved for human capital and that drove many of our industrial innovations. Russia mostly hasn’t. In regards to this conflict Russia is in close proximity to rail and thus it is not impacted.

Russia during the years of the empire and the USSR didn't have a serious manpower problem, but it does now. The USSR in 1989 had 286.7 million people and Russia has about half that now. On top of that, conscription is very unpopular in modern Russia and Putin has had to be very careful in drafting people. They only did the partial mobilization because Putin knew that a full mobilization could have led to widespread unrest and possibly civil war. As it is, a lot of recruitment centers were fire bombed and mobilization was very unpopular.

Politically Russia can't grow the army much more without risking rebellion.

One of the things Putin did to stay in power was he fostered political apathy. He made people not really care about politics. But apathy in wartime is a problem because the people won't get behind the war. Putin needs to raise political interest, but there are three factions: the anti-war faction, the warhawk faction, and Putin's faction. Raising political interest raises the risk that the newly politically active will move into one of the other camps than his. If a lot of people move into the anti-war camp, then he faces internal rebellion, if a lot of people move into the warhawk camp he faces someone from his right bumping him off and taking over to turn the country into an war state. In this latter scenario, the nuclear weapons will probably start flying.
Ukraine does not even target the logistics ability of Russia despite the supposed weakness Trent harps on. Why? They are not idiots. Answer it is a robust network with 3 choke points . They took one out. They will undoubtedly move to target the others this summer. It is the bridges rather than truck fleet that is the vulnerability.

Ukraine has been targeting Russian logistics heavily now that they have western artillery. Most HIMARS strikes have been on logistical hubs. Because of HIMARS the Russians have had to move their logistics hubs further back, out of HIMARS range and rely more heavily on trucks to move supply the last 90 Km. It has resulted in units at the front being starved for supply. On intercepted phone calls supply shortages is a common complaint.

Taking out bridges has a draw back. It slows down enemy supply, but it also hinders you on offense. With bridges out, your army needs to wait for engineering units to put in temporary bridges at every river or other crossing where there was a bridge. If they want to move quickly, they will want to leave the bridges in place.

Ukraine has spent February and March and now April targeting ew systems and artillery. Which tells you what Ukraine thinks they need to do to change the war.

The telling point from the CNA report is that nato has the exact same vulnerabilities as Ukraine in regards to certain defensive needs. Also since Russians are not idiots I would expect them to incorporate lessons learned and focus future training on more integrated attacks just as the Russian army does effective attacks with artillery and infantry. During the Korean War the Russian Air Force were not complete idiots and were effective.

Many of the MiG pilots in the Korean War were WW II pilots.

NATO's force structure is different from Ukraine's. NATO doctrine is built around air power and Ukraine never had enough air power to make a difference. Ukraine has been able to deny the Russian's air superiority, but they could never achieve it themselves. They didn't have enough aircraft or pilots.

NATO has an air defense weakness, but that's because it has an air dominance doctrine. If something were to deny a NATO force control over the air, it would face troubles on the ground.

For Ukraine it is clear why they are ratcheting up calls for air defense help. They are nearly depleted. The lessons in this report would strengthen those wanting to supply missile based defense instead of f16.

The bulk of the world's missile based AD is Russian made. Finding more of that from a country willing to sell it or give it to Ukraine is going to be tough.

Ukraine does have much better short range defenses now, but the longer range stuff is in short supply.


Ukraine has to walk a tightrope here. Surrendering territory to Russia in a peace deal is politically unacceptable to Ukraine. If Zelensky tried, he would likely be ousted and the war would continue. Ukraine's majority attitude is back to the pre-2014 borders or die trying. Zelensky is just the spokesperson for this attitude.

Ukraine has to play nice with China and try to get them to hold back on full scale military aid to Russia as long as possible. If the offensive goes well, the issue might be moot. China can help Russia replace their lost equipment after Russia is kicked out of Ukraine in that scenario.

China can help Russia with ammunition and small arms, but they likely can't help Russia that much with heavy equipment. Russia doesn't have trained crews for their fighting vehicles anymore. Giving them new tanks and APCs would help a little, but without training, they would likely just become targets.

If Russia could get new artillery and ammunition, that might make a difference. Ammunition is in short supply and their guns are worn to a point they are very inaccurate.
 
@wdolson they have targeted artillery and ammunition dumps. Rarely fuel dumps. Even now when they see trucks bringing fuel they do not target them with himars. They do not seek to cut the truck fleet to shreds. Why? Easy targets. Because Russia has hundreds of thousands and can buy all they want . You can drive 1000 heavy trucks across the Persian or Chinese border tomorrow.

In the highly developed and industrial base that is eastern Ukraine logistics are not as big a deal as Trent has made it out to be. The proof is in the pudding, this winter Russia didn’t struggle to get supplies to the front. They have a problem with them going boom once Ukraine sees something it thinks is a worthy target.

Re the ho chi Minh trail I would like to recommend you read any of a multiple of books. I haven’t met an officer that served there that wasn’t in awe and as someone that organized things in a different country in similar terrain let me just say you do a great disservice to the people of Vietnam that moved mountains of supplies to support a years worth of fighting in the 6 month dry season. Artillery mortars ammo fuel radar anti aircraft systems all moved on dirt trails/ roads. Through mountains. Under constant and continuous fire. It was amazing and i would put it in thr top 5 greatest military achievement post wwii.

Russia has pulled off two brilliant retreats- from Kiev and from Kherson. They didn’t have great logistics difficulties doing so in either one. Trent makes too big a deal and that might become because the USA army has become wedded to a huge material arm. We can’t envision another army not needing the same. Wonder if Israel uses forklifts or has conscripts carry howitzer rounds.
 
@wdolson they have targeted artillery and ammunition dumps. Rarely fuel dumps. Even now when they see trucks bringing fuel they do not target them with himars. They do not seek to cut the truck fleet to shreds. Why? Easy targets. Because Russia has hundreds of thousands and can buy all they want . You can drive 1000 heavy trucks across the Persian or Chinese border tomorrow.

They probably are buying some trucks from China. But that burns foreign reserves that Russia can't afford to burn.

In the highly developed and industrial base that is eastern Ukraine logistics are not as big a deal as Trent has made it out to be. The proof is in the pudding, this winter Russia didn’t struggle to get supplies to the front. They have a problem with them going boom once Ukraine sees something it thinks is a worthy target.

Russia did struggle to get supply to the front. Artillery use dropped off as did the use of combat vehicles. The forces Russia was using this winter had a much smaller supply tail than the heavily mechanized units they used earlier in the war. The Russian army largely demechanized this winter.

Re the ho chi Minh trail I would like to recommend you read any of a multiple of books. I haven’t met an officer that served there that wasn’t in awe and as someone that organized things in a different country in similar terrain let me just say you do a great disservice to the people of Vietnam that moved mountains of supplies to support a years worth of fighting in the 6 month dry season. Artillery mortars ammo fuel radar anti aircraft systems all moved on dirt trails/ roads. Through mountains. Under constant and continuous fire. It was amazing and i would put it in thr top 5 greatest military achievement post wwii.

I guess they moved more than I thought, but the Vietcong was primarily an infantry army. The North Vietnamese were moving about 100 tins per day of supply. 15 tons were via the Ho Chi Minh trial. They moved the rest through Cambodia and Laos.

Edit - mistaken data

From this:
Tatra trucks as the basis for the logistics of the Army of the Czech Republic

"Each division (i.e. about 10,000 troops) needs about 4,000 tons of supplies per day to function fully in combat! (Yes, really 4,000 tons per day.) The vast majority of these supplies (or ammunition, fuel, lubricants, food, etc.)"

Now that the army has largely demechanized, it's probably lower, but it's still much higher than the North Vietnamese army. But the Russian army is heavy on artillery which is very supply dependent.

An all infantry army is easier to supply, but it has a lot less combat power and vastly less mobility than a mechanized army.

Russia has pulled off two brilliant retreats- from Kiev and from Kherson. They didn’t have great logistics difficulties doing so in either one. Trent makes too big a deal and that might become because the USA army has become wedded to a huge material arm. We can’t envision another army not needing the same. Wonder if Israel uses forklifts or has conscripts carry howitzer rounds.

Israel has one of the most high tech supply chains in the world
Move over Amazon, the Israeli military is equipping its warehouses with artificial intelligence

For some reason I haven't fully understood, the Russian army practices withdrawals. The US doesn't (which is a failing of planning on the part of the US). Russian training came through when it came time to pull out.

Withdrawal logistics is different from supply logistics.
 
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I guess they moved more than I thought, but the Vietcong was primarily an infantry army. The North Vietnamese were moving about 100 tins per day of supply. 15 tons were via the Ho Chi Minh trial. They moved the rest through Cambodia and Laos.
The Ho Chi Minh Trail (HCMT) went through Laos and Cambodia. It's how they moved so many supplies through those two countries. Like with many other aspects of that war, some US estimates of the use of the HCMT were wildly inaccurate.

If you haven't seen it already I highly recommend Ken Burns' epic 18 hour documentary on the Vietnam War. It's mind blowing. The film's creators discuss the HCMT briefly here:

The story of the Ho Chi Minh trail, in a way, kind of emblematizes the entire war, because you see the determination and the willingness to sacrifice on an epic scale. There were 20,000 people that were killed maintaining the Ho Chi Minh trail. Many of them were young women who volunteered as something called the youth brigade.
Here is a brief summary of the Bombing of the HCMT from Ken Burns:

When the U.S. Navy blockaded the coastline of South Vietnam, the North Vietnamese sent their supplies overland through Laos and Cambodia by turning 12,000 miles of jungle footpaths into roadways. Dubbed the "Ho Chi Minh Trail," the American military reasoned that if it could be sufficiently damaged, the enemy would be unable to sustain itself. Three million tons of explosives would be dropped on the Laos portion of the trail alone. But as often as the Trail was bombed, it was repaired. As many as 230,000 North Vietnamese teenagers—many of them volunteers and over half of them women—worked to keep the roads open.
Here is a very brief video overview of the Trail from TED-Ed:


The HCMT had a profound impact on the Vietnam War and it was the key to Hanoi's success. North Vietnamese victory was not determined by the battlefields but by the Trail which was the political, strategic. and economic lynch pin.

They conclude with this quote from a US NSA report:

[The HCMT was] one of the great achievements in military engineering of the 20th century.

To the mods: This does not directly pertain to the war in Ukraine but I think it's important that we get history right, especially about logistics because logistics may well determine the outcome of the war in Ukraine. At the very least we should be using the same nomenclature.