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Russia/Ukraine conflict

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Russian Airlines Ask Employees to Report Fewer Aircraft Malfunctions – Proekt

Best way to use fewer aircraft parts is to stop reporting problems with airplane parts. Hahahahahahaha.

Funny you brought that up...Chris0 just did a thread on the same topic.
 
My bad. 😳

The correct numbers are $33,830 and $14,500.

What's the time frame? Per month? Per year?

Why do you state incorrect figures for the number of aircraft the Ukrainian Air Force had at the start of the war?

The correct numbers are 51 MIG-29s and about 60 other fixed wing combat aircraft(!)...
(Source: Ukrainian Air Force - Wikipedia)

And no matter what, or how much you write, you are for whatever reason siding against the Ukrainian Air Force.

I am not going to do that.

I am going to continue to side WITH the Ukrainian Air Force.

I know more about military aviation than I do anything else. Military air power was my entry drug. I want to be an idealist, but I'm trying to be a realist about it.

Ukraine did have 71 fighters at the beginning of the war, but I have read that about 20 were grounded and in poor condition.
Ukraine - Air Force Equipment

Ukraine inherited a large force of aircraft from the USSR, but they started downsizing in the mid-90s because maintaining such a large for was too expensive. Ukraine also inherited a Slava class cruiser that was incomplete. It's still sitting at dock in Mykolaiv. They never had the money to complete it.


Russia isn't getting enough parts to keep everything flying though. They have a lot of airliners grounded due to lack of spares now. With the incidents happening due to lack of maintenance, it's only a matter of time until the Russians have a commercial aircraft accident.

IIRC no country can join NATO while in active conflict. Ukraine will have to have this conflict end before they can join.

If I rememebr right the criteria for joining NATO is not being in any active conflict and no active territorial disputes. I think that's one reason why the Russians have created frozen conflicts in Georgia and Moldova. They had one in Ukraine until they unfroze the conflict last year.

How did the West manipulate Putin into invading Ukraine?

The West was very timid about allowing Ukraine to join NATO, and about supplying weapons. before the war.

NATO is a defensive alliance which protects member states from invasion.

And why did Russia invade Crimea and the Donbas in 2014?

Usually when you want to find the party in the wrong look at who is invading a sovereign nation. That is also true when the US is the country doing the invading.

There is no need or excuse for invasions, and colonial territorial land grabs, in the modern era. There is no excuse for a military invasion which seeks to topple a democratically elected government.

It's a popular pass time to blame the US for everything wrong in the world. The US is guilty of a lot of wrongs, but there are also a lot of problems that had nothing to do with the US. Timothy Snyder has pointed out that Putin has to blame someone outside of Russia for all the woes and the convenient target is the United States. It doesn't matter what the US does, Russia will continue to blame the US.

This plays into a guilt a lot of Americans feel for the wrongs the US has done.

Both the US and Britain have collective guilty consciences about their past. A history podcast out of the UK I listen to was talking about this once. Other former colonial powers don't have collective guilt about what they did. It's an Anglo-American thing apparently.

One very common thing I hear a lot is blaming the US for NATO expansion eastward. The US resisted this very hard, but Poland forced their hand. Poland told NATO that either they get into NATO and under the NATO nuclear umbrella, or they would develop their own nuclear weapons.

For countries that are threatened by a nuclear power, whether that be China or Russia, the only choices are to either get under the US' nuclear umbrella or develop their own. India and Pakistan developed their own to protect themselves from each other. It's rumored that Israel has nuclear weapons, though not proven. Iran being isolated from the rest of the world and unable to trust being under Russia's nuclear umbrella are developing their own. North Korea did the same thing because they can't trust being under China's umbrella.

The west avoided helping Ukraine with much of anything before 2014. After 2014 NATO started training Ukraine troops and providing some other military aid, but it was only after Russia had occupied part of the country.

With all the changes with Eastern Europe, the Eastern European countries or Russia have taken the first steps and the west has been scrambling to keep up.

Russia is effectively going to run out of equipment before they run out of manpower. Watching this play out is like watching a giant realtime game of RISK play out.

Ukraine doesn't need to keep all the economy going. Large parts of the economy has been shuttered for the duration of the war.

Russia needs to keep the economy going. Russia's outside support is very minimal compared to Ukraine's. If Russia did mobilize all the men of draft age, large parts of the economy would grind to a halt. I think it was a ChrisO thread from the other day that Russia wants to expand their military production, but just trying to keep production at pre-war levels is proving very difficult.

There are some shortages of parts and raw materials, but the biggest problem is a shortage of labor. Military production plants are paying peanuts. An engineer only gets around $500 a month in pay. Line workers get less than that. With the government strained for money, they can't afford to pay anything more than that.

If Russia mobilizes more people than they have, the labor shortage will get worse. But you are right that the shortage of weapons is a limiting factor on mobilization. If they mobilized more people, they would run the risk of draft riots because the draft is very unpopular, and they have nothing to give the new recruits and nobody to train them.

There are many stories of mobiks only getting an AK and one clip of ammunition before being thrown into combat. There are stories of Russian troops scrounging the battlefield for unused ammunition on dead bodies.

There are units like the VDV units that are better equipped. But there are probably more units equipped with minimal gear than well equipped units at this point.

When an army starts running out of basics like rifles and rifle ammunition, it's in trouble.
 
Ugh. So, I will ask the question, which has been debated before, what will stop this? AA defense will prevent attack's from succeeding, but not stop them. Short of the UKR developing their own weapons like the drone attack noted upthread, they would need weapons to destroy the launch points inside Russia. Otherwise, it’s destroy Russia in UKR, and wait for Russia to self implode from the pressure of losing a war and facing the economic and social toll. Did I miss anything?

 
Ugh. So, I will ask the question, which has been debated before, what will stop this? AA defense will prevent attack's from succeeding, but not stop them. Short of the UKR developing their own weapons like the drone attack noted upthread, they would need weapons to destroy the launch points inside Russia. Otherwise, it’s destroy Russia in UKR, and wait for Russia to self implode from the pressure of losing a war and facing the economic and social toll. Did I miss anything?


Once it becomes clear that Russia can't hold onto Crimea then Putin will likely lose his job. This is a time honored Russian tradition. It's not guaranteed but it's likely that his replacement (even a hard-right replacement) will choose to end the war in Ukraine. This will give them their best chance of getting Russia back on its feet and staying in power while it happens. Blame everything on the Crazy Ivan War Criminal.

The alternative of losing Crimea and the war under your watch and committing more war crimes in Ukraine thus getting your own personal invitation to the Hague does not have a lot of appeal. If Putin could turn back the clock and not invade Ukraine, I'm sure he would jump at the chance. It's unlikely that a war criminal will lead Russia while it re-joins the international community.

An implosion in Russia is possible but not necessary. Yes, there could be some really horrific outcomes but not all outcomes need to be horrific. If there is a successful counter-offensive by Ukraine this summer cutting off the land bridge to Crimea then we have the best shot at a relatively peaceful (not world-ending) transfer of power in Russia. It would have been much better if the West hadn't dilly-dallied with giving Ukraine the weapons it needs so we could have ended this whole thing last summer.
 
Ugh. So, I will ask the question, which has been debated before, what will stop this? AA defense will prevent attack's from succeeding, but not stop them. Short of the UKR developing their own weapons like the drone attack noted upthread, they would need weapons to destroy the launch points inside Russia. Otherwise, it’s destroy Russia in UKR, and wait for Russia to self implode from the pressure of losing a war and facing the economic and social toll. Did I miss anything?


War is politics by other means. When at war, you do whatever you can to degrade the enemy and stop them from doing what they're doing, but if they have a lot of resources, it's going to take a lot of effort and there will be failures.

In late WW II the US Navy had the best air defense anybody had ever seen. Carrier groups were increased to two oversized fighter squadrons and the dive and torpedo bomber squadrons were downsized to a fraction of early war squadrons. Carrier command centers had been perfected to guide fighters onto detected incoming raids. Anti-aircraft gunnery had been improved to a level of lethality never seen before. Picket destroyers were deployed ahead of the carriers to spot incoming aircraft further out than the carriers could detect.

Despite Japan having badly degraded pilot quality and the intense defenses attacks both kamikaze and conventional slipped through and caused damage. Almost every one of the Essex class carriers was hit by a kamikaze. the Bunker Hill and Franklin almost sank. The picket destroyers took heavy damage and losses. Most of the US destroyers sunk in the last year of the war were picket destroyers sunk.

Russia will continue to send these attacks and some missiles will slip through. Damage will also be done from AA missiles and shot down missiles coming to earth. People under an anti-aircraft umbrella are always at risk to be hit by falling fragments. In WW II people were hurt and killed by falling fragments from the AA artillery of the day. These days the potential falling fragments can be much larger.

All we can hope is that by the time Russia gets forced out of Ukraine they will have enough internal problems that they don'e bother attacking Ukraine anymore.

Once it becomes clear that Russia can't hold onto Crimea then Putin will likely lose his job. This is a time honored Russian tradition. It's not guaranteed but it's likely that his replacement (even a hard-right replacement) will choose to end the war in Ukraine. This will give them their best chance of getting Russia back on its feet and staying in power while it happens. Blame everything on the Crazy Ivan War Criminal.

The alternative of losing Crimea and the war under your watch and committing more war crimes in Ukraine thus getting your own personal invitation to the Hague does not have a lot of appeal. If Putin could turn back the clock and not invade Ukraine, I'm sure he would jump at the chance. It's unlikely that a war criminal will lead Russia while it re-joins the international community.

An implosion in Russia is possible but not necessary. Yes, there could be some really horrific outcomes but not all outcomes need to be horrific. If there is a successful counter-offensive by Ukraine this summer cutting off the land bridge to Crimea then we have the best shot at a relatively peaceful (not world-ending) transfer of power in Russia. It would have been much better if the West hadn't dilly-dallied with giving Ukraine the weapons it needs so we could have ended this whole thing last summer.

The smart move for someone who is replacing Putin would be to blame it all on Putin and try to save Russia, but the way the people to the right of Putin talk, I doubt that is what they will do. The people to the right of Putin are ideologues who believe that the only reason Russia hasn't won is that Russia didn't try hard enough. Many talk about using nuclear weapons as well as universal conscription.

Russia is so short of arms that universal conscription would be a disaster even if there wasn't widespread draft riots. They would end up in the situation they were in with the defense of Moscow in 1941 when there were so few rifles that they sent hoards of untrained conscripts with orders to pick up the gun of someone who fell. It was pure desperation and got thousands killed.
 
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Do we have any good examples of modern offensive wars being lost by the aggressor? Ie attack, fail, fall back, say mea culpa let's be friends please... Would Ukraine have to march to Moscow to get a deal like Kuwait got with Iraq or can they stop at the border? Or will they have to drone bomb Moscow and get a surrender like after Dresden? There has been a lot of crime and destruction in Ukraine, someone has to pay right? Who will do the paying? Russian taxpayers? What about all the soldiers/generals following Putins orders?


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Pretty high numbers...
 
What's the time frame? Per month? Per year?
I did write that it was per month. Here:
 
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Do we have any good examples of modern offensive wars being lost by the aggressor? Ie attack, fail, fall back, say mea culpa let's be friends please... Would Ukraine have to march to Moscow to get a deal like Kuwait got with Iraq or can they stop at the border? Or will they have to drone bomb Moscow and get a surrender like after Dresden? There has been a lot of crime and destruction in Ukraine, someone has to pay right? Who will do the paying? Russian taxpayers? What about all the soldiers/generals following Putins orders?


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Pretty high numbers...

Historically the aggressor usually wins a war. If the aggressor's momentum is checked, they are often defeated. The Germans and Japanese in WW II are an example of this. They did pretty well in the early going only to be ground down.

North Korea in the Korean War. NK almost drove the UN troops completely off the peninsula. By August 1950 the North Koreans had pushed the UN forces all the way down to Pusan where a relatively small pocket held out. The NK army took huge losses at Pusan and the UN retook South Korea. When the UN forces crossed into North Korean the Chinese army got involved and the DMZ was set pretty much where the whole thing started.

Iraq initially made gains against Iran in the Iran-Iraq War, but was stopped and pushed back to their borders.

@Artful Dodger pointed out the 1973 Arab-Israeli War, but that pattern was the pattern for most of the Israeli Wars before 1973 too.

Iraq was the aggressor in the First Gulf War too, but that was a different pattern. Iraq took Kuwait, then there was a pause as the US and other armies built up on the Saudi-Kuwait border, and then the Iraqis got crushed.

As an aggressor in a war, losing momentum is a bad sign. I'm sure there is a war where somebody lost momentum, got it back, and then won, but I can't think of one right now. The two patterns that are most common are either the aggressor gets its goals and the fighting stops because the defender can't really fight back well enough, or the aggressor is checked and eventually defeated.

The wars we think about are usually the ones where the aggressor is checked and defeated because they are usually longer and more memorable. The Russian occupation of parts of Georgia was a short war. So was the taking of Crimea. The Donbas fight went on for 8 years, but at very low intensity.

I did write that it was per month. Here:

Thanks, I missed that the first time.
 
Do we have any good examples of modern offensive wars being lost by the aggressor? Ie attack, fail, fall back, say mea culpa let's be friends please...
USA vs. Vietnam
USSR vs. Afghanistan
USA vs. Afghanistan

Ukraine will not invade Russia nor will they need to. This war has been disastrous for Russia. The total losses dwarf those from the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan by a factor of 10 or more. The yearly losses are 100 times higher. The pathetic Victory Day celebrations demonstrated how bad it's been.

Do you want to hear a joke about the Victory Day parade?
No tanks!
The only reason Russia is still fighting is because Putin knows he will lose his job (at least) if he fails. If the Ukrainian counter-offensive is successful then there will be no reason for Russia to stay in the war other than to save Putin's job. They've already been pushed back from Kyiv, pushed back from Kharkiv, and pushed back from Kherson.

When Russia stops fighting in Ukraine, the war ends. There is no reason for Ukraine to invade Russia. It would be a colossal mistake, bigger than the mistake Putin made invading Ukraine. Ukraine has zero interest in invading Russia and Ukraine's Western allies are totally against it.

The Ukrainian game plan is to kick the invaders out of all of Ukraine and then build up forces to prevent another invasion. I highly recommend watching the recent interview with Ukraine's Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces.
 
USA vs. Vietnam
USSR vs. Afghanistan
USA vs. Afghanistan

Ukraine will not invade Russia nor will they need to. This war has been disastrous for Russia. The total losses dwarf those from the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan by a factor of 10 or more. The yearly losses are 100 times higher. The pathetic Victory Day celebrations demonstrated how bad it's been.

Do you want to hear a joke about the Victory Day parade?
No tanks!
The only reason Russia is still fighting is because Putin knows he will lose his job (at least) if he fails. If the Ukrainian counter-offensive is successful then there will be no reason for Russia to stay in the war other than to save Putin's job. They've already been pushed back from Kyiv, pushed back from Kharkiv, and pushed back from Kherson.

When Russia stops fighting in Ukraine, the war ends. There is no reason for Ukraine to invade Russia. It would be a colossal mistake, bigger than the mistake Putin made invading Ukraine. Ukraine has zero interest in invading Russia and Ukraine's Western allies are totally against it.

The Ukrainian game plan is to kick the invaders out of all of Ukraine and then build up forces to prevent another invasion. I highly recommend watching the recent interview with Ukraine's Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces.

Ukraine may conduct raids across the border to weaken Russian logistics, but I agree they will not invade Russia. There are many reasons for this. They have a lot of allies because they are the victim, if they invade Russia they cease to be the victim. Ukraine also wants to keep Russia's morale low and to keep the people neutral or against the war. That happens as long as the war is outside of Russia.

Ukraine has made it clear they want to go back to their 1991 borders and no more territory than that.

As for the wars in Afghanistan and the Vietnam Wars, those were mostly insurgency wars which is a different kind of war. In an insurgency, being a foreign invader is a big disadvantage and having a big and/or sophisticated military makes little difference. Foreign invaders almost always lose insurgency wars. The only one I can think of that was a victory was the British in Malaysia in the late 1940s, and they ended up losing the colony anyway. National governments fighting an insurgency by a rebel group of their own people sometimes win, but there they have the advantage of having the backing of at least some of their population.
 
Do we have any good examples of modern offensive wars being lost by the aggressor? Ie attack, fail, fall back, say mea culpa let's be friends please... Would Ukraine have to march to Moscow to get a deal like Kuwait got with Iraq or can they stop at the border? Or will they have to drone bomb Moscow and get a surrender like after Dresden? There has been a lot of crime and destruction in Ukraine, someone has to pay right? Who will do the paying? Russian taxpayers? What about all the soldiers/generals following Putins orders?


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Pretty high numbers...
Most of them. You have Iraq vs Iran. Iraq quickly penetrated but then was pushed back and lost- very similar to this war. Then various Arab vs Israel wars. Israel surprise attack was successful however in a counterpoint.

The Iraq vs Iran conflict is the one to pay attention to in this instance. Similar in beginning. Now there are differences. Amazing that with all that Soviet aid and support that Iraq could not defeat an army under almost complete interdiction on modern arms. Iran had huge stocks of US equipment to start but Iraq was backed by USSR and it devolved into an artillery vs human wave war. It is the reason that Russia has a shortage of good ammo- they sold over half of their reserves to Iraq between 1981 and the end of that conflict and invasion of kumait.

India vs Pakistan is another set to look at, Pakistan was often the aggressor, never won.
 
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In addition, in a Telegraph podcast it was mentioned that Greg Bagwell (cited in the article above) suggested that the recent Ukraine drone strikes at military targets inside of Russia combined with the Storm Shadow cruise missile strikes have Russian air defenses on edge and this might have caused them to shoot down their own aircraft. Four times in one day. The podcast also said the two helicopter that were shot down were the sophisticated electronic warfare versions.

Jittery friendly fire rings true. Perhaps the aircraft were shot down by soldiers who had the same training as those doing air defense on the Russian flagship Moskva right before it was sunk by two Ukrainian missiles.
 
What a day Western Air Defense makes. Ukraine says it shot down all projectiles involved in the intense attack on Kyiv including 6 Kinzhal missiles, 9 Kalibr cruise missiles launched from ships in the Black Sea, 3 short-range ballistic missiles from land, and all drones:

Ukraine’s air defense intercepted six hypersonic Kinzhal missilesfired by Russia early Tuesday, Ukrainian officials said. If confirmed, the strikes would be further evidence of Ukraine’s ability to shoot down one of the most sophisticated conventional weapons in Moscow’s arsenal.


Ukraine says it shot down Kinzhal missiles, one of Russia’s most advanced weapons.
 
What a day Western Air Defense makes. Ukraine says it shot down all projectiles involved in the intense attack on Kyiv including 6 Kinzhal missiles, 9 Kalibr cruise missiles launched from ships in the Black Sea, 3 short-range ballistic missiles from land, and all drones:

Ukraine’s air defense intercepted six hypersonic Kinzhal missilesfired by Russia early Tuesday, Ukrainian officials said. If confirmed, the strikes would be further evidence of Ukraine’s ability to shoot down one of the most sophisticated conventional weapons in Moscow’s arsenal.

Ukraine says it shot down Kinzhal missiles, one of Russia’s most advanced weapons.

Lol, meanwhile Russia claims it destroyed a Patriot Missile Battery. Well, perhaps an Energizer Bunny Battery... but only after the wabbit stops going and going. :p

Cheers!
 
Do we have any good examples of modern offensive wars being lost by the aggressor? Ie attack, fail, fall back, say mea culpa let's be friends please... Would Ukraine have to march to Moscow to get a deal like Kuwait got with Iraq or can they stop at the border? Or will they have to drone bomb Moscow and get a surrender like after Dresden? There has been a lot of crime and destruction in Ukraine, someone has to pay right? Who will do the paying? Russian taxpayers? What about all the soldiers/generals following Putins orders?


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Pretty high numbers...
In many ways I think the Iran-Iraq conflicts in the 1980s/1990s are the best modern analogue. I see @wdolson and at @nativewolf has also commented thus. They are under reported and under-analysed in the West. Some of my peers at college were involved - and they far preferred college to the alternative of the front lines.

By the way when the British were carrying out the anti-communist insurgency effort in Malaysia in the late 40s / early 50s the objective was already to wind up and leave. So it wasn't a case of win the war, but lose anyway. Not at all, and nor was that the outcome. Very complex subject and I don't think it is much relevant to the Ukraine situation on the current trajectory.
 
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