Say no to Saudi Arabia

[Buggle]

the exclusionary Saudi version of Sunni Islam, with its denigration of Jews and Christians, as well as of Muslims of Shiite, Sufi and other traditions, may have made some people vulnerable to the lure of Al Qaeda, the Islamic State and other violent jihadist groups. “There’s only so much dehumanizing of the other that you can be exposed to — and exposed to as the word of God — without becoming susceptible to recruitment,”

This is true of most religions imo. Go to a Catholic or Lutheran Church and ask them about Jews or Muslims. Their presentation will be slicker, but the base idea is the same.

 

[Buggle]

To those who forget history. To those who see nothing wrong with major dealings with despotic regimes. An interesting look into the history of GM and Ford





Washingtonpost.com: Ford and GM Scrutinized for Alleged Nazi Collaboration



Ford and the Führer

This is an interesting post. I will say though I believe much of what we believe to be evil about the Nazi's came in hindsight. What's the difference between the Nazi's pre-kristallnacht, and as Trump says, 'those fine people' in Charlottesville? GM in your example was dealing the Germans pre-holocaust, as they are dealing with the fine people in Charlottesville today. I know this example is a bit rough, but I believe there are many, many analogies in today's world where we're dealing with super bad people, and the line between super bad and purely evil is really very thin. Putin's Russia and Erdogan's Turkey come to mind. The west is heavily invested in Turkey.

 

[notacoalminer]

On a personal note, having placed an order (paid 3,500) what do I do at this point? If I do nothing, what will happen? Not sure I want a Tesla any more, though what's the alternative? Driving ICE. Ay. So what happens if I don't respond to a delivery notification? Or should I take some action?

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

The difference is the actions of unknown individuals in their private lives vs. Giving money to known murderers and terrorists. Your attempt at moral equivalence is striking. If this deal goes through, every single tesla purchase will help perpetuate one of the most heinous and brutal regimes in history. Perhaps you will be able to sleep well knowing your role in this, but i and i hope many others, cannot.

So what's the maximum percentage ownership that won't help perpetuate the regime? They're already at 5% and are free to acquire more on the open market, or invest in other funds that own shares.

Maybe the best way is to sell up, help support competitors, have Tesla collapse and leave the Saudis out $20B.

 

[Buggle]

On a personal note, having placed an order (paid 3,500) what do I do at this point? If I do nothing, what will happen? Not sure I want a Tesla any more, though what's the alternative? Driving ICE. Ay. So what happens if I don't respond to a delivery notification? Or should I take some action?

Just bite the bullet and do it. As others have pointed out, unless you live in an organic farm in the mountains with your own generator, you are perpetuating misery somewhere. Additionally, imo Tesla and their mission is probably the most important thing going on the planet today. They need to thrive, Saudi's or no Saudi's.

 

[notacoalminer]

This is an interesting post. I will say though I believe much of what we believe to be evil about the Nazi's came in hindsight.

From the NYTimes:

AND then there was failure: none greater than the staggering, staining failure of The New York Times to depict Hitler's methodical extermination of the Jews of Europe as a horror beyond all other horrors in World War II -- a Nazi war within the war crying out for illumination.

The annihilation of six million Jews would not for many years become distinctively known as the Holocaust. But its essence became knowable fast enough, from ominous Nazi threats and undisputed eyewitness reports collected by American correspondents, agents and informants. Indeed, a large number of those reports appeared in The Times. But they were mostly buried inside its gray and stolid pages, never featured, analyzed or rendered truly comprehensible.

150th Anniversary: 1851-2001; Turning Away From the Holocaust

 

[Buggle]

150th Anniversary: 1851-2001; Turning Away From the Holocaust

I'm not minimizing anything. GM started a relationship with the Nazi's when they were a bunch of thugs in uniforms running around blabbing off. America has plenty of those today. I'm saying the nexus of GM's relationship with the Nazi's occurred in an environment not terribly dissimilar to parts of America today. Further, Germany ~1930 was far from united behind the Nazi's. They were fringe weirdos. Again... another parallel...

but honestly that article is long. I'll read it & come back to you later.

 

[notacoalminer]

So what's the maximum percentage ownership that won't help perpetuate the regime? They're already at 5% and are free to acquire more on the open market, or invest in other funds that own shares.

Maybe the best way is to sell up, help support competitors, have Tesla collapse and leave the Saudis out $20B.

I was very disturbed when I heard the Saudis bought 3-5%. I thought Elon's Tweet 'considering private' was all about blocking them.

I don't want Tesla to collapse...

 

[notacoalminer]

I'm not minimizing anything. GM started a relationship with the Nazi's when they were a bunch of thugs in uniforms running around blabbing off. America has plenty of those today. I'm saying the nexus of GM's relationship with the Nazi's occurred in an environment not terribly dissimilar to parts of America today. Further, Germany ~1930 was far from united behind the Nazi's. They were fringe weirdos. Again... another parallel...

but honestly that article is long. I'll read it & come back to you later.

No, that wasn't what I was saying. The NYTimes minimized it. You asked when the US knew. It was known, but minimized by the premier newspaper for personal reasons, is part of the answer.

 

[Buggle]

No, that wasn't what I was saying. The NYTimes minimized it. You asked when the US knew. It was known, but minimized by the premier newspaper for personal reasons, is part of the answer.

Well.. it certainly wasn't known they were gonna kill 6M ppl in 1930, that's for sure.

 

[notacoalminer]

Well.. it certainly wasn't known they were gonna kill 6M ppl in 1930, that's for sure.

From the Smithsonian:

Adolf Hitler had provided clues to his ambition to commit mass genocide as early as 1922, telling journalist Josef Hell, “Once I really am in power, my first and foremost task will be the annihilation of the Jews.”

The First Moments of Hitler's Final Solution | History | Smithsonian

But obviously many people were in denial, including many Jews.

 

[jacobp]

When i first learned about Tesla, I was excited that here was this new company with a billionaire CEO who wanted to do good for the planet. He was willing to invest his money to create a company that would make the world a better place by reducing its dependence on foreign oil, and the corollary impacts of climate change. And so I bought two cars from Tesla, giddy with the excitement that I too was saying "no more" to arab oil and reducing my carbon footprint. For the near 5 years that I've had my car, I've been an enthusiastic supporter of all things Tesla. But now, Tesla is about to embolden the very same oil empire that I believed buying a Tesla would take me away from. Rather than reducing the arab oil control of economic sectors, Musk is leading the charge to sell out to one of the most heinous, brutal regimes in history. Tesla symbolized the concept of doing good in the world. If this transaction goes through, it will symbolize exactly the opposite: allowing the worst of the worst to profit from the EV. This is truly shameful and a complete abdication of the principles that I thought Tesla was founded upon. Instead of doing whatever he can to distance himself and the company from KSA, Musk is getting into bed with them. I hope the Board will see how morally bankrupt this concept is and reject the deal outright.

 

[Barklikeadog]

When i first learned about Tesla, I was excited that here was this new company with a billionaire CEO who wanted to do good for the planet. He was willing to invest his money to create a company that would make the world a better place by reducing its dependence on foreign oil, and the corollary impacts of climate change. And so I bought two cars from Tesla, giddy with the excitement that I too was saying "no more" to arab oil and reducing my carbon footprint. For the near 5 years that I've had my car, I've been an enthusiastic supporter of all things Tesla. But now, Tesla is about to embolden the very same oil empire that I believed buying a Tesla would take me away from. Rather than reducing the arab oil control of economic sectors, Musk is leading the charge to sell out to one of the most heinous, brutal regimes in history. Tesla symbolized the concept of doing good in the world. If this transaction goes through, it will symbolize exactly the opposite: allowing the worst of the worst to profit from the EV. This is truly shameful and a complete abdication of the principles that I thought Tesla was founded upon. Instead of doing whatever he can to distance himself and the company from KSA, Musk is getting into bed with them. I hope the Board will see how morally bankrupt this concept is and reject the deal outright.

but he wont have short sellers saying mean things and asking how many cars they built.

 

[Unpilot]

While I agree with the post above....one has to admit while looking at the whole picture that black and white fade.
To be perfectly honest I also want Tesla to succeed...but I also want to profit from that success...to say anything else would be dishonest.

So how to proceed knowing that part of the profits from Tesla will flow to KSA? Well one way is to say...they already are. Does anyone on this forum think the obscene amounts of money the KSA has is not already every were?

Also if I stand up proud and say I will not support Tesla because of their involvement with KSA ...should I also sit on the same moral high horse for my sweat shop produced clothes? How about most electronic devices and the rare metals required for there production? When I dutifully tape my batteries up to recycle them as well as all the old laptop's/camera's/game-boy's ect...were do they go? Who does the work to recycle them?

Really the only way to have a clean heart in the modern world is too not be modern.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

[A] Anytime the word “they” is invoked to describe an entire population of people, that is racism. In this thread, there’s a lot of “they” being thrown around. I totally get that much of this is semantics but I think words are important and there are a lot of stupid people in the world who will not understand the difference between all the different “they”s being referenced in discussions like this. [B] Are we talking about the sovereign wealth fund? The managers of the fund? The government? Which part? Which leaders? The military? Which generals? The laws? The foreign policy? The non-governmental entrepreneurs/investors? The ones who got their money from oil? The ones who got their money from renewable energy? The ones that run a neighborhood convenience store? Random Joe or Jane? I’m not saying there’s not an issue with Saudi Arabian laws or foreign policy that needs to be discussed. [C] But I think it’s dumb to say things like “I don’t want those Saudi’s to buy Tesla because they chop off people’s hands over there.” That’s incredibly reductive. /...

A: I completely disagree! I also note that you don't have one single concrete example! What has been discussed here are people's actions, ideologies and religious beliefs. NOT their ethnicity and/or "race"!

B: What do you think?

I am talking about the people in charge -- the people that make up the power structure. The ones that make up the military dictatorship. And that of course includes the people who run the 'wealth fund', the managers of that 'fund', the government and the generals et al.

C: You're entitled to your opinion. I completely disagree!

 

[Darren Donovan]

While I agree with the post above....one has to admit while looking at the whole picture that black and white fade.
To be perfectly honest I also want Tesla to succeed...but I also want to profit from that success...to say anything else would be dishonest.

So how to proceed knowing that part of the profits from Tesla will flow to KSA? Well one way is to say...they already are. Does anyone on this forum think the obscene amounts of money the KSA has is not already every were?

Also if I stand up proud and say I will not support Tesla because of their involvement with KSA ...should I also sit on the same moral high horse for my sweat shop produced clothes? How about most electronic devices and the rare metals required for there production? When I dutifully tape my batteries up to recycle them as well as all the old laptop's/camera's/game-boy's ect...were do they go? Who does the work to recycle them?

Really the only way to have a clean heart in the modern world is too not be modern.

Exactly. It's very hard, pretty much not feasible, to be "clean" in the modern, globalized world. I try, at all times, to find an alternative to buying stuff made by China. However, my phone is made there, TV, other electronics,....Clothes? None from there. My cars for sure not, American if at all possible.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

So what's the maximum percentage ownership that won't help perpetuate the regime? They're already at 5% and are free to acquire more on the open market, or invest in other funds that own shares.

Maybe the best way is to sell up, help support competitors, have Tesla collapse and leave the Saudis out $20B.

We can't stop them from buying on the open market. I personally don't care about that. And I will still order my Model 3 as soon as I can. Tesla is by far the best option.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

On a personal note, having placed an order (paid 3,500) what do I do at this point? If I do nothing, what will happen? Not sure I want a Tesla any more, though what's the alternative? Driving ICE. Ay. So what happens if I don't respond to a delivery notification? Or should I take some action?

It seems the Saudis would have picked up stock even if Elon hadn't entered into this 'private business'... Hopefully Saudi ownership is kept at a minimum. So what alternative do you have to buying a Tesla? An ICE would not be an alternative to me...

 

[notacoalminer]

So what alternative do you have to buying a Tesla? An ICE would not be an alternative to me...

That's the problem. Elon built something beautiful - you called it the crown jewel of corporations, which I think is apt. Now's he's gone and attached it to something vile.

Now what?

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

We'll just have to wait and see for the outcome of all of this...