Serious security issue with phone as a key

[daniel]

Isn't there the same problem if you leave a fob in the car

I've left my fob in the Prius and tried to lock it. The car can tell that the fob is inside the car rather than outside. It beeps at me and does not lock. If you ignore the beeping, you can walk away with the car unlocked and the fob inside, ready to drive.

But this very seldom happens because I almost always have the keyfob in my pocket. It's small enough, and its only use is to open, start, or lock the car, and I don't need to take it out of my pocket to do any of that. The phone is bulky in my pocket, and on a road trip it will be plugged in to the car's charger.

 

[Daniel in SD]

I've left my fob in the Prius and tried to lock it. The car can tell that the fob is inside the car rather than outside. It beeps at me and does not lock. If you ignore the beeping, you can walk away with the car unlocked and the fob inside, ready to drive.

But this very seldom happens because I almost always have the keyfob in my pocket. It's small enough, and its only use is to open, start, or lock the car, and I don't need to take it out of my pocket to do any of that. The phone is bulky in my pocket, and on a road trip it will be plugged in to the car's charger.

I wonder if this is possible with their BT LE implementation. That probably requires that there be multiple antennas to be able to triangulate the position of the fob. Bluetooth LE is dirt cheap. Tesla probably saved money by using it instead of whatever most manufacturers use. I've never accidentally left my phone in the car. I notice the second that I start walking that it's not in my pocket (probably not a good thing. haha).

 

[slipnslider]

Your phone/iPad is your key now, treat it as such and there will be no problems. IMHO this is a non-issue.

Then go read the entire thread dedicated to issues with the phone key. FOBs had almost no issues. The phone key has many.

 

[slipnslider]

I don't see how having a bluetooth LE key fob would be any better than a phone except for people without phones. You would be just as likely to leave it in the car.

FOBs never had entire 17 page threads dedicated to technical difficulties with the FOB. The phone key already does.

 

[gaswalla]

Been mentioned.. I have an S and a 3... have forgotten my fob in my S and didn't realize for a long time... Have never forgotten my phone in the 3 - that's my reality of feeling insecure without my device... others may have less of an attachment/dependent relationship with their phone

 

[swegman]

Been using phone as key for a month. Works great. Keep the black card in my wallet for emergencies. Nice not to have a ring of keys in your pocket.

Consider yourself lucky. The phone key and RFID card is a complete failure as far as I am concerned. It only works about 1/2 the time. The car, which is only a month old, is going back again to Tesla to try to fix this. The technicians have no idea what is going on. Further, they indicated that BT5 phones such as the iPhone X and Pixel 2 are not compatible with the BT4 of the car. What will happen when new phones come out with BT6, 7, whatever?

The Tesla techs have tried repairing the card to the phone, pairing phone to card, without success. They are stumped. And a review of the logs fail to disclose anything. They are hoping that firmware 2018.12, which they say is currently being beta tested, will fix the problem, but they just don't know for certain.

Yesterday, was locked out of the car for 30 minutes. Not even the RFID card would unlock the car. Then, all of a sudden the car unlocked. Drove the car for a few minutes but then was unable to lock the car using either the phone key or the RFID card.

Numerous people have issues with the phone key. This is not unique. Have no issue with the Model S keyfob. Works 100% of the time. And the fob is never left in the car since it never has to me removed from my pants pocket, so the situation discussed above never occurs.

 

[Sandiegodoug]

I have an iPhone X
Works perfectly with my 3

 

[Daniel in SD]

FOBs never had entire 17 page threads dedicated to technical difficulties with the FOB. The phone key already does.

I'm just saying that a fob that uses the exact same technology as the phone will have all the same issues. I think other manufacturers use technology that can better figure out the location of the fob.
Also, search for "key fob problem ANY CAR" and you'll see that there are plenty of problems. Not a good excuse though.

 

[slipnslider]

I'm just saying that a fob that uses the exact same technology as the phone will have all the same issues. I think other manufacturers use technology that can better figure out the location of the fob.

Nope. A phone will create far more issues. One reason is that tesla only controls one end of the system. With a tesla fob and a tesla car, they control BOTH ends, and can make it work reliably. Unless tesla starts making phones, the phone key will always be more problematic and less reliable than a fob.

 

[slipnslider]

I have an iPhone X
Works perfectly with my 3

So far. Just wait until a new iOS comes out and screws everything up.
And congrats on buying the right phone to access your car reliably. Should your car always determine which phone you can buy?

 

[Daniel in SD]

Nope. A phone will create far more issues. One reason is that tesla only controls one end of the system. With a tesla fob and a tesla car, they control BOTH ends, and can make it work reliably. Unless tesla starts making phones, the phone key will always be more problematic and less reliable than a fob.

I have to agree with that. Multiple implementations are a problem. I really like the idea of using my phone. I hope it works for me!

 

[slipnslider]

I have to agree with that. Multiple implementations are a problem. I really like the idea of using my phone. I hope it works for me!

I'm fine with the phone key being made available for anyone who wants to use it and doesn't mind troubleshooting technology. It's the elimination of the fob altogether that really bothers me.

 

[diamond.g]

Nope. A phone will create far more issues. One reason is that tesla only controls one end of the system. With a tesla fob and a tesla car, they control BOTH ends, and can make it work reliably. Unless tesla starts making phones, the phone key will always be more problematic and less reliable than a fob.

I dunno, a lot of folks on this board with Model X's were having issues that folks with Model S's were not having. Most of the issues were attributed to the BT signal and not the legacy fob one.

Someone said the Model S uses BT like the X does in it's fob, but has that been proven.

Model X keeps unlocking and locking with key FOB nearby | Tesla ...
Don't let a Model X key battery die | Tesla Motors Club

 

[daniel]

I'm just saying that a fob that uses the exact same technology as the phone will have all the same issues. I think other manufacturers use technology that can better figure out the location of the fob.

The fob and the car are built to work together. They are built with compatible hardware and software. Every phone is different. When the iPhone SE first came out it didn't work properly with some BT headsets. BT is not one single technology. It's an industry standard that can be implemented in any one of a number of ways and is notoriously buggy when pairing devices from different manufacturers. With the phone as a key, you've got many different kinds of hardware, each of which can be running any of several operating systems, all of which are updated from time to time by the phone maker without regard to what car you might have. And the car has to be able to work with any of them. And has to work every time one of them gets an OS upgrade.

It's a system that cannot work for everyone.

Give us a fob that's built for the car so it will always work with the car, and then have the app as an option for those who want it.

I'm fine with the phone key being made available for anyone who wants to use it and doesn't mind troubleshooting technology. It's the elimination of the fob altogether that really bothers me.

Exactly!!!

Tesla needed to provide a fob AND the app, at least during the first year to make sure the app would work. Eliminating the fob in favor of a system that's never been used before is too big a leap. These things have to come in steps. It's like rock climbing where you clip in to the next bolt before you unclip from the previous one. Tesla is trying to move too fast.

For me it's a nuisance having to bring my phone with me every time I leave the car. The Prius's fob is a tiny thing that can stay in my pocket. I'd much prefer to leave my phone in the car but I can't.

 

[N5329K]

I'm just saying that a fob that uses the exact same technology as the phone will have all the same issues. I think other manufacturers use technology that can better figure out the location of the fob.
Also, search for "key fob problem ANY CAR" and you'll see that there are plenty of problems. Not a good excuse though.

I got my first key fob car (Gen 1 Prius) in 2002. I added a second Toyota key fob-ed car in 2013. I have never had a key fob failure. Low battery conditions are always well-signalled far in advance, and it's a snap to swap out batteries. I have never had to take the fob/ car combo in to a dealer and beg them to make it work.
It just works. Likely because it is a simple device that only does a very few things but does these very few things reliably and well. My key fobs won't let me check email. Or get a TSLA quote. Or post a picture of my lunch to the universe.
But they always lock and unlock my cars. Always.
Some Model 3 owners seem to enjoy almost that level of dependability. Quite a few do not.
Robin

 

[david_42]

I have 3 other ice cars on my ring
Since I only drive 3 around now, only take ring when using my tundra , Wrangler or motorhome

I'm always amazed that people don't have any keys other than their car key. I have five on my fob and three more that I leave in my office most of the time.

 

[RayK]

The person renting you the car should have just given you the keycard instead of accessing his account. While more inconvenient for the renter to use the card, seems that would totally avoid this whole situation. I would never want to give some stranger my access to my account.

This is what the owner did for the 3 I rented via turo.com. In fact, I think I'll just use the card key when I get my own car; even with the physical issues it brings. While I almost always leave home with my phone, I'd rather have a purposeful act (swiping the card against the B pillar) gain me access to the car, than proximity of the phone to the car.

Along those lines, does anybody know if I can pair my phone (via BT) to the speakerphone in the car, without needing the Telsa app on my phone?

 

[david_42]

I don't see how having a bluetooth LE key fob would be any better than a phone except for people without phones. You would be just as likely to leave it in the car.

Really? I've been driving for 52 years and have never left my keys or fobs in the car.

 

[slipnslider]

I'm always amazed that people don't have any keys other than their car key. I have five on my fob and three more that I leave in my office most of the time.

I think tesla's assumption (and the assumption of phone key fans) is that if you want a model 3, you must love all technology, and be wealthy enough to have keyless entry on your house too.
It's wrong, but that seems to be their logic.

 

[daniel]

I would probably just shut off the BT on the phone, except that I really like the idea of having the phone connected to the car for phone calls. I'd remove the app except that it also has functionality I like (if it would work: they seem to have chosen a bargain-basement cell carrier for the car, so most of the time it won't connect).

I just think that for opening and closing a keyfob would be better.

It can't be good to have the car locking and unlocking half a dozen times when I'm doing anything near the car, like carrying the groceries into the house, or putting them in the car. Toyota did it right: The car unlocks when you touch the handle, provided the fob is nearby. Pressing the little button locks the car, providing that the fob is nearby and not inside the car.