SF Bay Accident Surveillance Footage

Exclusive: Surveillance Footage of Tesla Crash on SF’s Bay Bridge Hours After Elon Musk Announces “Self-Driving” Feature — The Intercept

Musk has said Tesla’s problematic autopilot features are “really the difference between Tesla being worth a lot of money or worth basically zero.”

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[TresLA]

Once Tesla and Elon stops calling it FSD then I’ll call it what they call it

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/attachments/1673471298230-png.894638/View attachment 894840

In human communication, there is a reasonable expectation to understand context. Others don’t have the problem you insist on having. We understand what they mean when. So should you.

 

[TresLA]

FINALLY.

@TresLA ? Your welcome.

You don’t actually get to choose what a speaker means to fit your narrative.

 

[aronth5]

I purchased starlink for my RV. It sucks I primarily use cellular hotspot. The reusability a stage one has saved, no money, the extra weight of the fuel to land it ruins the efficiency. show me the financial data. Another government subsidized, Elon business.

Read thru this and you will see numerous examples of SpaceX's efficiency and pricing advantages. Falcon Heavy which reuses either 2 or 3 stages depending on the launch requirements is estimated at $1,400/kg per payload. Starship will be an even greater advantage. Some stage 1 rockets have reflown now over 10 times. A Falcon launch costs around $60m with $200k the cost of fuel so the actual added cost to land is extremely small compared to the total cost.
Why do you believe SpaceX has now the dominate launch provider globally? Simple, cost and reliability. Educate yourself before making uninformed statements.
Space launch market competition - Wikipedia

 

[parrainx]

Lets wait for updates, so we can get back on topic.

I’m happy with my AP experience and I can’t think of better infotainment alternative. Also don’t have a problem rotating my eyeballs 1 degree to the right to see speed and everything else I need.

 

[Dewg]

So many pages of debate on this issue. So many people who drive the same route on the same bridge using ADAS features with no problems. This was an anomaly, and one that Tesla will very much be pouring over to minimize in the future, I'm sure. All the pearl clutching is an overreaction.

As others here have said - this was the driver probably panicking and not handling the intervention/disengagement properly. Had he simply felt the g-force changes of the car starting to slow down, and disengaged the system while putting his foot on the accelerator, this would have been a minor slow down of the Tesla and then a quick correction and continuation of the course. He could have also intervened with the steering wheel while also using the accelerator to override TACC's slowdown until he was comfortable enough with the maneuver to reengage Driver Assist.

 

[P90D]

Not really, no. The reason most of us have stuck with Tesla is that Tesla keeps pushing out software updates that bring our cars steadily closer to actually being self-driving.

If nothing had changed over the last 6 years and 3 months, or if they had abandoned older cars, we would have dumped our cars and would all be screaming "fraud" right now. But thus far, they've lived up to their promises as they were presented — that these cars would improve over time, and eventually would be capable of self driving, including driving across the country to pick you up.

Sure, their progress has been way slower than they originally expected, but you can't tell me that things aren't moving in the right direction overall. And ultimately, what matters is that our cars will likely eventually reach that point, even if they are at a million miles and on their third battery by then.

If your primary criterion is self-driving, there's already self-driving from Ford and GM. Both work well. Self-driving from Mercedes is better than Tesla right now, but it still requires a hand touching the steering wheel. GM and Ford use a camera to watch the driver has eyes on the road.

I wouldn't call Tesla's work on FSD a fraud, but it's certainly nowhere near living up to expectations. The unacceptable part is that Tesla is not offering 100% refunds and 100% cash value of FSD when appraising a vehicle. Tesla should not be playing games with customers who want to buy a new Tesla but can't simply take their FSD license with them to the new vehicle or sell that license to anyone at any price they agree upon with certainty that Tesla will continue to honor the license, That, in my not so humble, is a fraud and a racket.

 

[Jagular]

If your primary criterion is self-driving, there's already self-driving from Ford and GM. Both work well. Self-driving from Mercedes is better than Tesla right now, but it still requires a hand touching the steering wheel. GM and Ford use a camera to watch the driver has eyes on the road.

I wouldn't call Tesla's work on FSD a fraud, but it's certainly nowhere near living up to expectations. The unacceptable part is that Tesla is not offering 100% refunds and 100% cash value of FSD when appraising a vehicle. Tesla should not be playing games with customers who want to buy a new Tesla but can't simply take their FSD license with them to the new vehicle or sell that license to anyone at any price they agree upon with certainty that Tesla will continue to honor the license, That, in my not so humble, is a fraud and a racket.

Caveat emptor. It’s in the language you agree to when you purchase the package. So, not a fraud. Racket? Maybe. Also, when you sell the car, you can charge the new owner for the cost of FSD.

 

[dachshund]

You must be watching a different video then, given the ones the rest of us are watching shows the car changing to the left most lane, then coming to a stop (seemingly fairly slowly, although that may be a function of the video camera angle making it seem that way). There was zero indication of it trying to steer into the wall.

Agreed. Today they showed the video from behind, where it was clear the car changed lanes to the lane 1. Sorry about that.

Today they had someone from KTVU ride along a driver who was demonstrating FSD. The big reveal was that FSD did fine on the same road with busy traffic.

 

[bradtem]

Agreed. Today they showed the video from behind, where it was clear the car changed lanes to the lane 1. Sorry about that.

Today they had someone from KTVU ride along a driver who was demonstrating FSD. The big reveal was that FSD did fine on the same road with busy traffic.

Ignore perspective and time the slowdown from 55mph to zero and decide if it's fast or hard

 

[stopcrazypp]

Agreed. Today they showed the video from behind, where it was clear the car changed lanes to the lane 1. Sorry about that.

Today they had someone from KTVU ride along a driver who was demonstrating FSD. The big reveal was that FSD did fine on the same road with busy traffic.

That's the case that practically everyone with experience with the road says. Phantom braking might be common, but a complete stop is extremely rare. Still remains a mystery what happened, maybe the NHTSA investigation will find more and make it public.

 

[Daniel in SD]

That's the case that practically everyone with experience with the road says. Phantom braking might be common, but a complete stop is extremely rare. Still remains a mystery what happened, maybe the NHTSA investigation will find more and make it public.

Do we really know how rare complete stops would be? I always hit the accelerator before I find out.
And of course if you've driven the section of road 1000 times without incident and one day the vehicle stops you might assume that it's doing so for good reason and not intervene.

 

[fobo]

My experience with my model three has been that they have certainly under designed the suspension to carry the weight.
infotainment is worse in class, Road noise is worse in class. When I purchase mine, there is no such thing as premium connectivity.

What a rant…get off my lawn

 

[F.Smolenski]

My EAP experience is phantom braking usually occurs for some unknown reason when cresting an abrupt hill. Otherwise, it can occur in recognizable situations, such as when in sharp curve situations, where the car thinks its heading heading for a tree or other car/truck.
I confess I haven't read the full thread so I may have missed thought this earlier, but my first thought after viewing the front and rear videos is that if truly on FSD beta, then it may have been disengaging for the driver's failure to have hands on the wheel and was trying to brake and pull safely to the side. The fact that its pulling to the left instead of the right; the fact that it appears to be doing this too quickly for what I think is "safely pulling over;" and the clearance between the car approaching from the back was insufficient, at least based on my EAP experience which seemingly takes forever to lane change. No matter, it would still point to driver inattentiveness as reported by the police in their report.

 

[P90D]

I purchased starlink for my RV. It sucks I primarily use cellular hotspot. The reusability a stage one has saved, no money, the extra weight of the fuel to land it ruins the efficiency. show me the financial data. Another government subsidized, Elon business.

Off topic: I had Starlink in two locations. It's great, but …

Both locations have too many trees. In one location I quit the service. In this location, as I type, it works very well. With some tree trimming and installing a 50' tower a few hundred yards up the hill, it will be better.

Starlink suffers from traffic congestion and it's slow on upload. We don't use facetime or zoom that much, and it works fine when needed for those services, but video is going to be crappy. For download, it's "slow" at about 150 Mb/s and "expensive" at $99 but was soon bumped up to $110, which shows they have high demand. I wanted to go to the business service, but they bumped that price to $500/month, which would be ok, but not needed at least until they improve the upload bandwidth (and peak hour congestion) problems.

Once the tower is permit-approved, I'll get the business service and relay it to a nearby neighbor. They'll pay $200 for the higher bandwidth (if it works) and quit the existing (sketchy) Starlink (they don't have land with higher elevation or space without trees.)

 

[P90D]

Caveat emptor. It’s in the language you agree to when you purchase the package. So, not a fraud. Racket? Maybe. Also, when you sell the car, you can charge the new owner for the cost of FSD.

There's absolutely nothing in the "language" (the contract of sale terms?) about FSD licensing ... Tesla continues to flatly refuse to define the FSD license … they deliberately go to lengths to leave it undefined. I assume they have rooms full of legal beagles paid to protect the corporation from the liability of "stuff Musk does" like making outlandish promises about the functionality of the vehicles and the software. I assume they already know the approximate dollar amount Tesla will be fined for whatever dishonesty in selling a license to something they knew to be non-functional. It's a straightforward fraud. A "long con." When I paid $1350 for FSD in 2019 I "knew" it wasn't real, I just bought into the "let's see how this plays out" curiosity of wanting a vehicle that Tesla is compelled to one day either make real or buy back that license and presumably pay some amount of penalty to every license holder. I'm guessing Elon Musk already set that number $12,000 (FSD minus EAP, which does work, or at least it did till the good ship USS Tesla steered itself into an iceberg of its own making … : )

 

[ELETRO]

(Beta)

 

[loquitur]

GPS would not function in that tunnel. Any nav system uses its road graph to know you don't just change decks on a highway. If they can't do that, it would be a bad failure. For one thing the upper deck goes the other way and it would then think it was going the wrong way on a highway, and I don't know what it would do then but change lanes is not the right answer.

Your mention of GPS helps explain an anomaly I witness using FSB beta (10.69.25.1, Model 3)
when driving in a certain place under the Central Freeway in San Francisco.
(Non-locals can ignore -- this occurs repeatedly going East on Duboce after it becomes 13th St.
heading towards Bryant St.).

What threw me for a loop is an attempted speedup to 50mph on the surface street that lasts
for several city blocks. I realized that it must be because the freeway overpass above must have
a 50mph limit (vs. a default of 25mph for most SF city streets) and something with autosteer city streets
beta is not disambiguating. Indeed, if you look at a map, 13th Street is overlapped by the overpass
to the extent that it's hard for human not familiar with the area to notice.

Amused about map ambiguity, I don't report it always thinking there are a gazillion SF Bay Area Tesla emps
who likely notice the same thing, so it'll be "fixed in the next release". But until GPS was mentioned
here I never thought that it's "switching decks" possibly due to a GPS deficit and not mere mapping error.

 

[P90D]

Your mention of GPS helps explain an anomaly I witness using FSB beta (10.69.25.1, Model 3)
when driving in a certain place under the Central Freeway in San Francisco.
(Non-locals can ignore -- this occurs repeatedly going East on Duboce after it becomes 13th St.
heading towards Bryant St.).

What threw me for a loop is an attempted speedup to 50mph on the surface street that lasts
for several city blocks. I realized that it must be because the freeway overpass above must have
a 50mph limit (vs. a default of 25mph for most SF city streets) and something with autosteer city streets
beta is not disambiguating. Indeed, if you look at a map, 13th Street is overlapped by the overpass
to the extent that it's hard for human not familiar with the area to notice.

Amused about map ambiguity, I don't report it always thinking there are a gazillion SF Bay Area Tesla emps
who likely notice the same thing, so it'll be "fixed in the next release". But until GPS was mentioned
here I never thought that it's "switching decks" possibly due to a GPS deficit and not mere mapping error.

That would be a good report for the FSD folks. I imagine they have it. I recall Waymo mentioning this as an example of a set of problems they had to solve.

 

[Mr. Michael]

This is what happens when so-called beta software (in a beta car), is spewed out to anyone with no training whatsoever. Not sure what kind of reaction time is expected, but combo phantom behavior with tailgaters and voila. Are we supposed to have both feet over the pedals with muscles tensed waiting for the unexpected at all times? That while you are death gripping the wheel and spinning your head around to watch for any potential problems. We have become paying crash test dummies.

 

[Scott Chapman]

My EAP experience is phantom braking usually occurs for some unknown reason when cresting an abrupt hill. Otherwise, it can occur in recognizable situations, such as when in sharp curve situations, where the car thinks its heading heading for a tree or other car/truck.
I confess I haven't read the full thread so I may have missed thought this earlier, but my first thought after viewing the front and rear videos is that if truly on FSD beta, then it may have been disengaging for the driver's failure to have hands on the wheel and was trying to brake and pull safely to the side. The fact that its pulling to the left instead of the right; the fact that it appears to be doing this too quickly for what I think is "safely pulling over;" and the clearance between the car approaching from the back was insufficient, at least based on my EAP experience which seemingly takes forever to lane change. No matter, it would still point to driver inattentiveness as reported by the police in their report.

Yup. You can watch that in the re-enactment video. Basically the driver demonstrates what happens when IT disengages.

Tesla's alleged Thanksgiving FSD crash in SF is being recreated by media

Tesla Owners Club of East Bay president Al Shen teamed up with the local media to simulate an accident with Tesla's Full Self-Driving Beta engaged.

www.teslarati.com