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According to this article Kreisel electric is using the same 18650 cells used by Tesla, so their pricing indeed does not apply to the pricing of cells for the Bolt. If anything, it proves that $145/kWh pricing revealed by Chevrolet indeed includes steep discount as compared to what LG Chem charges normally (+$100/kWh)
RobStark
Well-Known Member
Robert Carter says no problem, Toyota can just add a third hydrogen tank next month.
Toyota iterates quickly.
Kreisel's factory is very small compared to LG Chem's scale. Point being if a small player can do it for $140/kWh surely it's possible that LG Chem is NOT losing money at $145/kWh.
Kreisel is using the 18650 format as well.
These Kreisel Electric guys appear to blow some seroiusly hot air, their claims just do not add up. Consider this from the article linked above:
"Another novel design feature of the product is liquid cooling, which maintains the cells at a steady 30ºC. The fact that the cells are immersed in the liquid allows for very precise temperature control.
Charge-discharge cycles degrading cells
Once more this is in contrast to the Powerwall, where heating caused by each charge-discharge cycle further degrades the cells, said Schlögl."
The Powerwal, of course, includes liquid cooling of the cells. I think that based on this misrepresentation their claims need to be taken with a grain of salt.
The point is that Bolt is not using cylindrical cells which have significant price advantage over other formats. Kreisel pricing can't be used to draw any conclusions on Bolt cell pricing, especially in the view of the misleading statements by their representatives, as demonstrated in my post above.
Ulmo
Active Member
Aww, poor ICE companies stuck in oil age can't compete with direct sales in Internet age and are jealous. How cute. Grampa's dad on the front porch in his rocking chair talking about black gold before he passed away. Yes, Seeking Deceased Great Grampas. I'm sure he was Alpha in his time.
I'm old, and when I was a kid, I saw on this thing called television, they showed old copies of older reel to reel movies of old people telling stories of discovering oil. Oil is a has-been.
Every old oil age company WISHES they could dump inventory on Internet sales in the thousands, sell bundles, and pull them willy nilly, measured in nanoseconds. Of course they're throwing hissy fits ... they want mommy to stop Billy from winning, and everyone gets a participation trophy.
If anything, I'm glad this silly excuse for a complaint is as empty as it is, because you know they hate being stuck in the dealer model now that they see how outdated it is. In three years, every car company will sell direct. You already see it with DGDG.Com and AutoNation.Com (taking over all dealership sales models in San Jose / Silicon Valley, and physical dealer lots directing you to use the Internet directly). It's only a matter of time before those updated sales models erase the boundary between end buyer and manufacturer. And I bet those companies adjust and move inventory on and off their online lists all the time without any Seeking articles.
It might be time that Tesla starts reigning in collection sites like ev-cpo.com, or stating their policies and practices more overtly and taking pride in them. Or we can just ignore Seeking Alpha.
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mmd
Active Member
That's most likely what happened. When I sort them by discounts, I see the ones with big discounts are still around. The ones removed were mostly with no discount. Doubt they got snapped so quickly.
Tesla has a funny way to show its inventory, a small fraction at a time. Now you see them, now you don't.
I don't know too much about Kreisel Electric and have no interest in debating them. They seem to be gaining credibility from many partnerships forming. Also the statement that you use to discount everything from them could simply be misunderstood by you or not communicated clearly from them. They could have meant they keep cells at a 30 degree constant via liquid cooling while Tesla's Powerwall has more temp fluctuation via liquid cooling. I don't know, just saying I don't think it's wise to discredit everything they're doing. Lastly sure cylindrical cells have a cost advantage but I haven't seen anyone present how large that cost advantage is over LG Chem's format. And I don't think people really know because cell suppliers keep their volume pricing confidential. I'm just saying I don't think it's wise to discredit LG Chem and what they're doing either. To say "surely they're losing money at $145/kWh" is making a lot of assumptions just as saying "surely they're making money at $145/kWh" is making a lot of assumptions as well. We don't know but I think in time we'll find out more.
Have anyone looked at the options on the different inventory/demo cars?
I've been wondering if Tesla is really only discounting the cars that have high-margin options. An S75 with autopilot and high-amp charger could be sold with a 13,000 USD discount and still bring in as much margin as an S60 without autopilot and high-amp charger.
I've been wondering if Tesla is really only discounting the cars that have high-margin options. An S75 with autopilot and high-amp charger could be sold with a 13,000 USD discount and still bring in as much margin as an S60 without autopilot and high-amp charger.
LG isn't making any money at $145/kw. Asian companies are notorious for dumping product by manipulating their currency in order to gain market share and force out competitors. That's why LG was so upset at GM for revealing the price. Look up LG/Samsung dumping fines for washers and dryers in the states.
LG as a company is larger than GM so they can afford to lose money on the cells in order to build up market share.
All I am saying is that your point about using Kreisler quoted pricing as a confirmation of LG Chem cell pricing extended to Chevrolet for Bolt is not valid.
They'll be rapidly be put to the test since they deliver the drivetrain+battery for the VDL MidBasic Electric. VDL is a Dutch parts supplier and car manufacturer for hire, currently contracted to assemble between 60k and 100k BMW Mini's per year. Not a huge player but still a very serious endorsement that belies the '3 door garage' stereotyping of Kreisel.
Ulmo
Active Member
That's what they're doing. The software options are turned on and sold at turned off prices, and Tesla uses that discount as a karat. This includes 60-75kWh, AP, 72amp charger at the lower end and stuff like Ludicrous, battery upgrades, etc. at the upper end --- any software upgradable feature. I've been combing them with a fine tooth comb for a few days trying to find out if I should get one (and my requirements are odd which is why I didn't already find one and stop looking).
I have to say that the increased taste for better buyer's value this might start to leave in some current buyers' eyes would probably be easier to control if the next thing Tesla releases is some type of upgraded hardware that is more desirable and the regular margins are a non-issue, but even without that, I don't think Tesla is going to lose regular business.
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Thanks, good to know.
I'd agree this strategy likely won't affect customer behaviour in the short term. You'll really just end up with fence-sitters if this becomes a regular thing for every end-of-quarter delivery rush. And I'm certainly not convinced this will become a regular thing. Over the next few months, the Model X and the P100DLs will be rolled out in more and more markets, bringing the supply/demand more into balance. With more stable demand and more flexibility when it comes to geographic batching, I wouldn't expect these sorts of discounts going forward.
Gerardf
Active Member
Wonder if this will scare some more shorts today :
"The Tesla bears are feeling the heat."
Tesla’s Short Sellers Are Paying Through the Nose
"The Tesla bears are feeling the heat."
Tesla’s Short Sellers Are Paying Through the Nose
FredTMC
Model S VIN #4925
Ummm. Ok I guess
Just so long as everyone understands that tesla already has a CFO
Tesla (TSLA) Taps SunPower's Branderiz as VP of Accounting
Just so long as everyone understands that tesla already has a CFO
Tesla (TSLA) Taps SunPower's Branderiz as VP of Accounting
I would guess this is because Solar accounting, discussed in detail, is onerous and Wheeler wanted someone else to do it. Interesting it's an outside hire when you are about to bring over a whole company - unless you are leaving their accounting and financial departments behind.
Calvin.K
Member
That's fine, Tesla will just have to software unlock the 125KWH battery pack then
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