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Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2016

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I use the thread in the same way, and am wondering the same thing. Mondays always seem to be the hardest to predict. :D Got more stock at $217, but am now wanting to pick up more since it's so low. But have no clue if it will hover around where it is right now on Monday, shoot up, or keep dropping... Think my aim is to look at right at opening, and then either try to pick up around $210 if nothing's happening, or if it's dropping, wait for it to hit a sort of floor. Of course, this stock is crazy in the short term, so not sure how much anyone here can help us, but eager to read more opinions. :D

Your guess is probably as good as mine, but here's a few thoughts about Monday trading. Normally you can expect a bit of a jump up in price of TSLA during the first half hour of Monday trading as newbies to TSLA jump in after pondering the decision over the weekend, hoping to catch the price before it rises further. From here it can continue to rise or it call fall into the red. The first half hour of Monday trading really doesn't give us a solid idea of what the stock will do for the day. A rise in TSLA during the first half hour of Monday does not typically happen if the markets open significantly lower or if there's expectations of further price declines. I've found that an uptrend during the final half hour of Friday trading is a good clue that Tesla will open up. We didn't see that uptrend on Friday afternoon. Thus, in this case I am about as clueless as everyone else regarding what will happen on Monday. I just know that what happens in trading the first half hour of Monday morning can often be a false indicator of what the stock will do for the remainder of the day. My best guess is that TSLA will take its cue from the broader market Monday morning.

As for the investor who has set a $210 limit price, I'd be more inclined to set a $210.25 limit price because I would then be ahead of the others who are trying to buy at $210. In the long run, you will be happy you bought at $210.25, even if we see a lower dip before the inevitable rise.
 
No no and thrice no.

I like the drift of your recent comments but it is infused with FUD from the bear camp (the domain of investing mistakes to position an insightful investment strategy against).

Put yourself in Elon's shoes. There he is with this awesome product surrounded by a bunch of automotive journos and he apparently makes a wry comment that this is probably the hardest car in the world to build and it is so much better than it needed to be if the sole objective was just to sell it to people.

Do you think this guy meant:

A. This is more than just a car, this is a demonstration of Tesla's design and engineering authority. Nobody in their right mind makes something this good. Its beyond the capability of any other vehicle maker even to make this thing - with this we have pushed the boundaries of vehicle manufacturing to a whole new level, you cannot believe the hard work that went into this, nobody works this hard to make their customers happy and if it was just our intention to take people's money like every other grubby auto maker we could have saved ourselves a bunch of heartache and cut a whole lot of corners and still sold loads - and right here and now I want to come across as humble about the pride that is bursting out of my chest.

B. We screwed up and should not have made this over-engineered POS because now we are going to struggle to build it. Really?

Think. Especially considering the filter this information came through - via a bunch of auto journalists whose bread and butter is to write stuff that VW, Mercedes, Toyota, GM, Volvo, Jeep and Ford would like to pay for advertising alongside of which Tesla is the biggest click-bait and it does not pay for advertising. If you were a cynical hack what would you write to land fat Volvo XC90 and Porsche Cayenne ads either side of your Tesla article and a Mercedes GL on the back cover? That it's game over boys, Tesla is coming for your lunch? I don't think so.

Neither A nor B.

I follow the Model X sub-forum obsessively. Customer response to Model X has been extremely positive, so it is clear that Model X is an exceptional vehicle and not a pos. However, this does not mean that the car was optimally designed for ease of mass production. Everything from Elon's comments during the shareholder conference calls to his statements to the media to the rumors from suppliers implies that Tesla went "everything and the kitchen sink" on the Model X engineering, which has consequences for production. Even on launch night, one forum member here (I can't remember exactly who), stated that he spoke to Franz von Holhausen and that Franz looked utterly exhausted.

If there's one thing I've learned from engineering training (classwork, industry, etc.), it's that design and engineering has to take into account manufacturing. A microprocessor might be theoretically awesome, but how well does that design translate when the silicon comes out of the fab? The Pentium 4 "Netburst" architecture was created to run at clock speeds as high as 10 GHz. At the 180nm and 130nm nodes, Netburst was competitive but not decisively so. At 90nm the architecture basically ran into a thermal wall. If I remember correctly, the transistors used to implement the Prescott generation Pentium 4 were relatively leaky, resulting in even the top-bin silicon being unable to reliably run past the 4 GHz range. This is perhaps an extreme example of what can go wrong, but it drives home the point that designing a product to be easily mass manufactured to spec is an important part of the job.

None of my perspective is influenced by the "bear camp", as I generally do not read much if any financial media and take everything from the mainstream car media with a large grain of salt.

This is purely my taken from an engineering perspective.

What do I think Elon meant? My interpretation is this: "Model X is awesome. If we (the Tesla team) had made different design choices, Model X would still be awesome but it would be a hell of a lot easier to build in quantity. Maybe we should have made different choices, but it is what it is."

Elon's statements about Model 3 being "less adventurous" are consistent with this, and it's why I have faith in Tesla. They learn from their mistakes.

- - - Updated - - -

Is it not possible that one of the things Elon was referring to as being "excruciating" was engineering the car in a way that it would be easy to build and would be reliable and not have huge warranty costs? If you look at it this way, the excruciating part is over, now it's time to print money. Elon is a smart guy, I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Not in the context of what was stated in the conference calls and other statements, although I can't completely rule it out.

Even smart people can make unwise decisions.

However, given that Model X is an awesome product, I do expect that it is time to "print money". In my earlier posts I indicated my belief that a surge in gross profit thanks to Model X could come as early as the Q1 '16 report (due in May), bring free cash flow to the company, and push TSLA upwards onto a higher level. I have a good feeling about prospects for this year.
 
If there's one thing I've learned from engineering training (classwork, industry, etc.), it's that design and engineering has to take into account manufacturing.

Not to put too fine a point on it but are you here to teach Elon Musk this or me?

I am happy with the analysis I offered regards Musk's comments and its implications for short term price movements. It may be counter-intuitive but it stands to reason regardless.

FYI My baseline assumption regards Musk is that whatever I can understand easily, he almost certainly understands too, plus he has hand-picked subject matter experts on hand for any subject of relevance to the Tesla business, for example in this case Doug Field, Tesla's VP of Engineering, formerly a design for manufacturing VP at Apple responsible for things like the Macbook Air - basically an entire computer mass-storage included reduced to a single flow-soldered logic board.

I am happy to debate Musk's philosophies but when it comes to teaching him his job it is just invariably a bear fallacy. Not a bear - just a fallacy.
 
VW has promised it will have a fix in the coming weeks for the millions of US cars with defeat devices that disguised emission levels in diesel cars.

Volkswagen has been withholding corporate emails between executive related to the emissions scandal, using German law as the basis for the refusal. "I find it frustrating that, despite public statements professing cooperation and an expressed desire to resolve the various investigations that it faces following its calculated deception, Volkswagen is, in fact, resisting cooperation by citing German law.

Anyone want to guess what this magical fix will be, or what will happen when VW admits a magical fix doesn't exist?

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-35267164
 
Is it not possible that one of the things Elon was referring to as being "excruciating" was engineering the car in a way that it would be easy to build and would be reliable and not have huge warranty costs? If you look at it this way, the excruciating part is over, now it's time to print money. Elon is a smart guy, I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I agree. This was my interpretation of that comment as well all along. The X is fine now. They said not too long ago, that most of their engineers are working on Model 3 now, not S or X. If the X had serious manufacturing issues, hat wouldn't be so, it would be all hands on deck to redisgin parts. I think it took some time for them to move the seat manufacturing in-house, but now that that's done, they are opening the floodgates on config invites.

I also believe we are going to have a great ER - the question is can they surprise everyone with FCF positive Q4 or at least come very close to non-GAAP break even? What is even more important in that ER, though is 2016 guidance. I am a bit worried if they announce 75-80k cars the market may interpret that as not high enough - although I personally think that is still a very awesome growth rate and I rather they under promise and over deliver.

One more thing: call me crazy, but I have a feeling we have a few more positive surprises on GF progress and Model 3 too. On GF, we have seen those pictures about the lobby of the factory - I'd think when they already have something like that set up, GF is "thisclose" to starting up. As for Model 3, i have this feeling there has to be something more to that... some features they have not disclosed yet, higher than expected range (200 "real world miles" may be 220-240 rated miles?) or something else. Tesla does not seem to be phased by the Bolt at all... they know they have a smash hit on their hands. (Or at least this is my hunch).
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Ok, so one last thought -although this is rather mid-term: people keep forgetting, that once GF1 starts cranking out cells at 30% less cost, that doesn't only enable Model 3, but should provide some "ludicrous" gross margin for S and X. I wonder if that has been factored in into anyone's profit calculations yet...
 
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Not to put too fine a point on it but are you here to teach Elon Musk this or me?

I am happy to debate Musk's philosophies but when it comes to teaching him his job it is just invariably a bear fallacy. Not a bear - just a fallacy.

Not to teach anyone anything. This is my perspective from a product design and engineering perspective. The engineering decisions made on Model X are almost certainly related to the delays in the Model X launch, which have cascading effects on revenue, gross profit margins, and free cash flow. However, since we are now likely past the point of further delays, it's time to print money.

There are any number of instances in the past where I thought Tesla was doing dumb things, I and I've said in other threads I would have no problem telling Elon to his face what I thought the company was doing stupidly and why. The guy may be a genius, but he's not infallible. Since I'm not working at Tesla, it's obviously not possible for me to do this, but people at Tesla do monitor these boards. Steve Jobs was also a genius, but he made the dumb call to put only 128kb of RAM in the original Mac. The engineers knew this was stupid and designed the Mac's board to have the flexibility of higher RAM options. The people who also stood up to Jobs and offered better solutions were also the ones who got promoted.

Elon and the late Steve are obviously two very different personalities, but yeah, I think there are probably people at Tesla who could teach Elon to do his job better. That's their job as far as I'm concerned. A company that doesn't question or fight among themselves is a company that will fall into complacency. A certain amount of conflict is necessary for evolution.
 
This Forbes article today suggests that musk did a teleconference today with "the media"

anyone know anything else?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/brookec...untry/?utm_campaign=yahootix&partner=yahootix

One implication of the "summon your car from LA while you're in NY" concept is that the Superchargers would all have to be updated so that the charger plug could robotically reach out and connect to the car at each charger, without any human intervention at all.

Imagine entire fleets of robo-Teslas driving all over, and pulling into Superchargers and then when a mere human pulls in to charge their car, finds that most of the other charging cars are autonomous without any people in them...
 
anticitizen13.7The think you are missing IMO is that there is no error of engineering or timing with the Model X to seek an explanation for. This is a fallacy. There were expectations set and push backs excused but there was no delay. From the perspective of the Tesla business it is exactly the right product at exactly the right time.

The fact they had the luxury of latitude to chose their timing with everything from cash flows to the development of advanced vehicle content speaks to the extraordinary focus on priorities of this management team. A lesser management team would have caved to fear of back-talk from the competition, to the media, to Wall Street or to their customers to rush this product to market. When this story is eventually told, I wager that the biggest issue with Model X was maintaining cell purchasing commitments to Panasonic. Still they did not cave. Instead they launched Tesla Energy.

An even funnier if more speculative version would be that Tesla was going to struggle to convince Panasonic to supply cells for fixed storage (a market in which Panasonic is or was interested in competing) but Tesla only had a contract to supply cells for cars, so they just pushed back the X a couple of times until they had vehicle cells enough to launch the Tesla Energy business, launched it, and for all intents and purposes cut off the avenue for Panasonic to do an end-run around the Tesla business. Panasonic capitulated and fell in to line with Tesla's Gigafactory with a $1.6 billion commitment. Asian battery companies don't do things that they don't have to do and this would be the Art of War version of events.

I freely admit that I have no idea beyond guessing how they did that Gigafactory deal but it is a fair guess that it did not fall into Tesla's lap just for the sake of making pretty cars and playing nice. If there is one giant barrier to entry when it comes to competing with Tesla it will be to convince a battery company to ever do this again on behalf of another vehicle manufacturer. The advent of Tesla only makes that prospect much less likely because now those battery companies are in no doubt that they are the gatekeepers to any other auto manufacturer's aspirations to compete with Tesla - and milk that position of absolute leverage they will.
 
Hi Julian,
There is exactly one component of these vehicles, a battery cell, that is due for a cost haircut of 30%+ along with a 30% increase in energy density over the next 3-4 years making it a same-cost proposition to get 357 miles out of a 2015/16 Model X and nearly 400 out of a Model S and most likely to unlock another couple of hundred peak horsepower. Try that with the change of one component and a bit of coding in an ICE vehicle.
The cost per kWh will decrease a lot more than 30% in the next t 3-4 years.

But a 30% increase in energy density over the next 3-4 years sounds optimistic. How did you come up with that figure?
 
Sorry, but Elon said it on the Quarterly Call, in "front" of Analysts and shareholders. It was in response to a question by Trip Chowdhry. Here's the whole context:



Then later at the Model X launch he said this:


So I get what you're saying, but the context of the conference call vs the presser before the launch have two different flavors.

Yes, these different segments help put the pieces of the puzzle together. Also, Elon stated something along the lines of the last quote (or even harsher) to a pro-Tesla reporter (I think Daniel Spark of The Motley Fool, who owns a Model S and is an investor in Tesla -- just as The Fool is).

Basically, there's not doubt about it -- the X was a complicated and difficult beast to produce, and Elon regretted it to some degree. Whether it was a relatively light-hearted "I'm glad that's over" way or a "man, I hope this doesn't come back to bite us in the butt" way, it's hard to know.

I personally think it was a great idea (though am still a little nervous about problems that hurt production and sales). I think the complexity and difficulty of the X was worth it and will pay the company back + a lot. And my concerns regarding production ramping up have nearly dissipated since the latest update from Tesla at the beginning of the month, and were beginning to do so at the end of December.

Again, as anticitizen13.7 pointed out, Elon has further gone on to say that they'll keep Model 3 simpler. I'm happy to hear that Tesla seems to have learned from the X just in time to change course on the mass-market Model 3.

In any case, my general thought right now is: Tesla has likely gotten past any remaining problems ramping up production, there are a lot of positive signs for 2016, we all know that, but the common investor (whoever that is) will probably not figure out for a few or several months. There's not much reason at this point for the stock to go down (unless a force majeure occurs, as Elon likes to say :D ), so I think it's worth getting in now (or putting more in now) rather than waiting any longer.

My remaining question is simply, when will this downtrend stop (or has it already)?

(Naturally, broader economic problems can screw things up... and provide more great buying opportunities down the road. :D)
 
Hi Julian,

The cost per kWh will decrease a lot more than 30% in the next t 3-4 years.

But a 30% increase in energy density over the next 3-4 years sounds optimistic. How did you come up with that figure?

One of the biggest factors that will significantly reduce the cost per kWh is Tesla working to produce a modern supply chain, that significantly reduces shipping costs, and significantly reduces the cost of repurposing or refurbishing lithium ion batteries. New trade agreements should further reduce the cost of batteries, and other heavy goods.

Also, the current cost of batteries is much higher than it should be because of factors that have nothing to do with the cost of producing batteries.
 
anticitizen13.7The think you are missing IMO is that there is no error of engineering or timing with the Model X to seek an explanation for. This is a fallacy. There were expectations set and push backs excused but there was no delay. From the perspective of the Tesla business it is exactly the right product at exactly the right time

:confused:

Perhaps this is a matter of semantics, but I cannot see how a car that was originally slated for "end of 2013", then moved to "end of 2014", then "early 2015", and then "Summer 2015", with a launch event of Sept. 29, 2015 but no substantial deliveries until Dec. 2015, cannot be said to have been delayed.

Well, it's water under the bridge now. I have seen worse delays: Guns N' Roses delivered "Chinese Democracy" 8-9 years late. Valve never delivered Half Life 2: Episode 3 at all (WTF, leaving that cliffhanger ending at the end of Episode 2 :cursing::cursing::cursing:). At least Tesla made good on the Model X in the end.
 
:confused:

Perhaps this is a matter of semantics, but I cannot see how a car that was originally slated for "end of 2013", then moved to "end of 2014", then "early 2015", and then "Summer 2015", with a launch event of Sept. 29, 2015 but no substantial deliveries until Dec. 2015, cannot be said to have been delayed.

Well, it's water under the bridge now. I have seen worse delays: Guns N' Roses delivered "Chinese Democracy" 8-9 years late. Valve never delivered Half Life 2: Episode 3 at all (WTF, leaving that cliffhanger ending at the end of Episode 2 :cursing::cursing::cursing:). At least Tesla made good on the Model X in the end.

Don't leave out duke nukem forever.
 
Imagine entire fleets of robo-Teslas driving all over, and pulling into Superchargers and then when a mere human pulls in to charge their car, finds that most of the other charging cars are autonomous without any people in them...

I have been saying this for a while and now seems like a good juncture to point it out again - the ability to snake charge and re-park at a Super Charger station is really important for managing large numbers of Tesla vehicles, including cars with drivers.

This is how Tesla will be able to coordinate with route-planning to ensure a bay is ready as you arrive and that your vehicle clears the bay on schedule ready for the next vehicle. This is what will allow people to walk off and go shopping without causing a log jam at the Super Charger station and drastically reduces the per-car Super Charger infrastructure cost for the Model 3. Network-coordianated fast charging and auto-reparking. I believe Super Charger stations are private land for this purpose.

This also answers the question: How do you own and charge a Tesla if you live in a city apartment with no parking space? Answer: It goes off and charges itself up at a charging garage and it comes back again when you need it.
 
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