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Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2016

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However, I think it's just perspective. If you trust SCTY's management and how they portray their debt/liabilities... then I can see why you'd like the merger. It's just that I don't trust their management and I think there's a good chance their debt is more toxic than they're letting on. And I don't want Tesla touching that stuff or being exposed to it, especially during a critical time like Model 3 ramp.

I disagree. I'm not a big fan of SolarCity's management, but to me, that's a reason FOR the merger.

This is pretty much what happened with Tesla 10 years ago. Elon was the chairman and biggest shareholder and wasn't happy with how things were going with Tesla but he knew it had amazing potential, so he took control, wrote the master plan, and turned things around. Look at us now.

Saying that you don't want Elon/Tesla to take over SolarCity because you don't like SolarCity's management makes absolutely no sense to me.

Just my thoughts.
 
I think there's a flaw in your doomsday scenario. If you take SCTY out of the equation, TSLA would also drop in that situation as it would still hit cash flow issues without model3 shipping and model S/X not shipping in volume due to the recession. In addition, the most recent SCTY debt that was due was already addressed by their own recent equity financing round right? The rest are being serviced by payments from the PPA, right? ~$3billion over 15-20 years doesn't amount to much annually. So the presence of SCTY and their debt would have minimal impact to TSLA's financials in a recession scenario, unless I've missed something?

And then about your view that a failed merger will mean TSLA goes up. Keep in mind that you're going against Elon in this scenario. If the merger fails, wasn't one of Elon's options to take SCTY private and have TSLA buy it anyway? Did you really get your desired result by voting no?

Voting against the merger is simply a no-confidence vote against management. It won't prevent TSLA from absorbing SCTY; only makes it more expensive to do so.
First, I don't believe Elon has ever stated one of his options was to take SCTY private and have TSLA buy it. If SCTY goes private, my guess is TSLA won't buy it, if ever, until after Model 3 reaches full production. IMO, Elon has had enough of the SCTY flak and purchasing a private SCTY right after shareholders voted it down would enlist more flak at a time when he'd rather focus on Model 3. If SCTY merger fails, SCTY will have to manage on their own for the time being.

Second, in the dark scenario I mentioned, yes TSLA would drop due to the recession and Model 3 issues, but the drop would be further accentuated if SCTY debt was more toxic than SCTY management has let on. In fact, it could erode a lot of the remaining confidence in TSLA's financial position. And push them to the brink. Without SCTY debt and problems, TSLA is fairly secure w/little risk of being pushed to the brink even in a recession.

Regarding SCTY's debt, it's just really difficult to access where and what kind of debt SCTY really holds since we're not privy to every financial/debt agreement they've signed. And further, the manner in which SCTY management portrays their finances not only changes frequently but is very complicated and lacks transparency, IMO.

So, there's a good chance that SCTY's debt is fine and TSLA's acquisition go through and it doesn't affect TSLA negatively. But I also think there's a decent chance that SCTY's debt is more toxic than SCTY management has let on, and that it does affect TSLA more negatively than what TSLA anticipates.

Until we are able to see all of SCTY's financial contracts, we're left to having to take management's word. And if you believe them, you're probably for the merger. If you don't think they're trustworthy, then you're probably against it because of the additional risks it poses to TSLA.

Also, on another point it's also possible that SCTY management isn't giving the entire picture to Elon as well.
 
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SolarCity's stock falling looks to me like investors losing focus of the things that matter. Here is a time line of events to give you an idea. (Note: These are not in precise order and I don't have time at the moment to dig up the precise dates.)
1) Chanos says SolarCity is doomed when it is ~ $40, but says a number of things that aren't accurate, and demonstrates he doesn't understand SolarCity's business model.
2) Everyone on here points out the flaws with his logic, and moves on.
3) Nevada makes a dumb decision to not grandfather in existing customers. SolarCity along with all solar stocks falls.
4) Chanos returns and continues to pound the table.
5) Elon announces proposed Tesla - Solarcity merger too soon after Chanos and broad market factors that have nothing to do with SolarCity have beaten up the stock.
6) Chanos pounds the table calling Elon crazy and says the deal is crazy, and says Elon is making a bad decision.
7) SpaceX incident (possible sabotage) causes paniic for anything related to Elon.
8) Random lawyers and supposed experts say they don't think the SEC will approve the firm and that neither firm did proper DD.
9) Bob Lutz, and the BS paid Putz - Spiegel begin to appear on TV every other week.


* i could list about 20 other things (I might in a future post) , but I think it's fair to say the stock falling from ~$26 - $16 has nothing to do with SolarCity, the company.

There hasn't been a single positive article about SolarCity in weeks, people on TMC are believing that the deal won't happen because of the stock price, and no analysts optimistic about the merger have commented on the matter.
 
Isn't SolarCity required to disclose all risk factors in their 10K/Qs and the recent S4? Are you implying that they are hiding something? Both Tesla and SolarCity have hired the very best (and, very expensive) law firms to pore over every little nitty gritty detail in this regard.

We can disagree on how good or bad SolarCity books are, but to say "more toxic than they're letting on" is a stretch. I don't think so.
The risk factors in fillings are mostly a matter of formality. Also, it's entirely possible that even Lyndon Rive doesn't fully understand SCTY's financial position, considering how complicated it is.
 
A lot of what I'm saying is just trying to give another perspective.

For example, it's easy to rant against Comma.ai since it appears it's like mainly one hacker doing it. But if one does deeper research, it's much more involved. Andreessen Horowitz is a well-known VC firm and they've backed Comma.ai with Series A funding. Andreessen Horowitz is known to be one of the best "full-service" VC firms. In other words they have a lot of staff who's purpose is solely to help small companies get huge. So, Comma.ai has a lot of resources at the moment. They basically have all the money they need, and they've got some of the best in Silicon Valley helping them grow. Am I saying they are going to beat Tesla? No. I think Tesla is way ahead. All I'm saying is I don't think it's wise to dismiss Comma.ai. I think they've got a very good chance at being bought by Ford, BMW, Mercedes, or another company for over $1B+ in the next 1-3 years.

For the Bolt, I think the main thing is it shows competition is coming to Tesla. Is the Bolt competition to the Model 3? No. It's in a different class. But the Bolt shows that other manufacturers can make long-distance EVs at competitive costs. LG Chem is the difference maker here. Selling their cells at $145/kWh is impressive. And pack costs are probably not that much higher than Tesla's pack costs (ie., $190/kwh or less for Tesla and maybe $210/kWh for Bolt... but that's a guess, but nevertheless the difference isn't huge). And pack costs are the major cost going into long-distance EVs. Once LG Chem tech and low cell costs go into other luxury cars, then we're going to see come interesting competition to Tesla. Does that mean those cars will be better than Tesla's? No, I think Tesla has the advantage. But I think the days when there were no competitive long-distance EVs competing against Tesla's cars are numbered. And this is something we as investors need to think deeply about.

Regarding Solarcity, I don't like SCTY management and I don't like how they've run their company over the past 4 years. I've emailed Elon and the SCTY management multiple times about it. My hope was that Elon was going to be able to turn around the company. But the situation has deteriorated at SCTY, in my opinion (again that's debatable), and I'm getting a stronger sense that SCTY acquisition will cause more risk than reward for TSLA. Does that mean that I exit all my TSLA? No, all it means is there is greater risk on TSLA w/SCTY acquisition, in my opinion. Of course, this factors into my investment decisions, but it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm bearish on TSLA or that I sell all my TSLA holdings. I still see immense potential for TSLA, the Model 3, and future cars. But as an investor, I need to collect all the risk/reward factors and bring them into my own decision making grid.
Dave, I think the "difference maker" to use your phrase will be when $100s of billions are spent on new battery factories. at current costs, it would take roughly $1 trillion to build battery manufacturing infrastructure to turnover fully from ICE to long range EVs.

beyond not having the money to do that in years rather than decades, the ICE automakers have a myriad of reasons financial, cultural, and personal, to slow this transition down as much as they can, so to speak, get away with (I don't see this as stupid, 'evil', or necessarily bad... until I see these big players (or battery partners) each spending at least as much as Tesla on battery plants, it looks like the bulk of electrification will be plugin hybrids (i.e., how can you take mfgs who build ten million vehicles a year as seriously moving to long range EVs if they've not even decided to build anything remotely like the one factory on the planet that was conceived of to make enough batteries for a half million cars) given the amount of miles the average person drives per day, that's actually a pretty efficient use of new battery supply coming online).

it's likely what modest move the other automakers do to long range EVs will be largely concentrated at the Model S/X price point. S/X sales growth may be impacted by this within 5-10 years.

Model 3, Y sales? Dave I strongly doubt we need to be concerned about any impact from other EVs any earlier than 2030 at the earliest. Within a couple of years I see the Model 3 being plainly better to the majority of consumers in that price range ($30K and up considering gas savings). there must be at least something like 75-100 ICE vehicle options in that price point. I'm not concerned if there are 5 or 20 or 50 long range BEV options in that price range from other manufacturers. until many hundreds of billions are spent on battery plants, Tesla will sell as many 3/Y as they can crank out.
 
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I think there's a flaw in your doomsday scenario. If you take SCTY out of the equation, TSLA would also drop in that situation as it would still hit cash flow issues without model3 shipping and model S/X not shipping in volume due to the recession. In addition, the most recent SCTY debt that was due was already addressed by their own recent equity financing round right? The rest are being serviced by payments from the PPA, right? ~$3billion over 15-20 years doesn't amount to much annually. So the presence of SCTY and their debt would have minimal impact to TSLA's financials in a recession scenario, unless I've missed something?

And then about your view that a failed merger will mean TSLA goes up. Keep in mind that you're going against Elon in this scenario. If the merger fails, wasn't one of Elon's options to take SCTY private and have TSLA buy it anyway? Did you really get your desired result by voting no?

Voting against the merger is simply a no-confidence vote against management. It won't prevent TSLA from absorbing SCTY; only makes it more expensive to do so.

Yeah I don't think TSLA would go up appreciably with a "no" vote. First, SCTY price would fall dramatically, regardless of anything else. If you don't like the stain by association now wait until SCTY struggles and sputters for years. And a "no" vote basically tells Elon "You can't solve the SCTY problem the way you wanted. Go solve it another, more difficult and painful way" The SCTY problem doesn't go away, it just downshifts and gets uglier. And it weighs on Elon more if anything, and takes away his tools to fix it.

He will be pissed and deservedly so.

For the record, I don't like SCTY's business and wish they had not gotten us into this mess in the first place. But I get how the least bad option now is merger.
 
I would say probably not since my understanding is it won't be completed this quarter. But it's hard to say without knowing more details. I'm not sure but I read it was a 20M deal, which is only like 200 cars to put it perspective.

Since it will be booked under service and other revenue which is around $100M / quarter, we will quite clearly see it show up. What's more, since gross margin on services and other revenue is reported separetely and hovering around 0-5% (service = not a profit center in Elon's words, rightly so) we will even know how much gross margin Tesla Energy is doing.
 
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I disagree. I'm not a big fan of SolarCity's management, but to me, that's a reason FOR the merger.

This is pretty much what happened with Tesla 10 years ago. Elon was the chairman and biggest shareholder and wasn't happy with how things were going with Tesla but he knew it had amazing potential, so he took control, wrote the master plan, and turned things around. Look at us now.

Saying that you don't want Elon/Tesla to take over SolarCity because you don't like SolarCity's management makes absolutely no sense to me.

Just my thoughts.

At Tesla, it was a CEO change. That's much different than two companies merging. Mergers are complicated and tend to drain a lot of energy/focus, and often don't work out as well. It's a different animal than changing CEOs. I'd be all for changing the CEO of SCTY. Just leave SolarCity as it's own company and not bring Tesla into it (in other words, I don't like the SCTY liability that TSLA gets exposed to in a merger). Let Tesla focus on Model 3 ramp which is going to be difficult enough. If Model 3 ramp goes well, let's talk about solar acquisitions at that point in 2018.
 
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I think Musk knows what he's doing and I think his timing is correct. It's risky, but when has Musk been anything OTHER than risky?

It took me a while to work it out, but if he plays his cards right, the acquistion of SolarCity is actually reasonably-priced non-dilutive financing for Tesla's Model 3 ramp. Tricky to execute but very doable.

I personally think the Model 3 ramp per se is well in hand. Service centers are another matter entirely, of course.
 
I’m a great fan of string theory and thus multiple universes but a little knowledge is, of course, a dangerous thing. It might be amusing, however to demonstrate how each of these worlds may be creative. If I understand it, quantum theory predicts what will happen once an experiment occurs. Each world created thus must be a version of each of the manifold possibilities of the wave equation. That’s a lot of universes!

Looking at the number of different interpretations today on TMC of what might be at root of the disconnect between SCTY and TSLA prices, given the macro environment, it is quite clear to me that TMCers given a chance can run through in real time more possibilities than the wave equation itself! Hence the conclusion the universe itself is creative, which can be argued on many other grounds. (Why the beauty of a flower, or the variety we call woman or man?)

In any case, if you’ve lasted long enough through this maudlin-philosophical trip from a man on the wrong side of 80, as the incredibly wise Papafox might be made to say, “wait until Monday when the wave equation has time to catch up with our macro thoughts.” Still, as the radio weatherman in Alaska once said, “we’ll have to take a leak outside to see if its freezing.”

Edit: I am truly losing it, look forward to an exit as hall monitor soon as Audi is even more active.
 
SolarCity's stock falling looks to me like investors losing focus of the things that matter. Here is a time line of events to give you an idea. (Note: These are not in precise order and I don't have time at the moment to dig up the precise dates.)
1) Chanos says SolarCity is doomed when it is ~ $40, but says a number of things that aren't accurate, and demonstrates he doesn't understand SolarCity's business model.
2) Everyone on here points out the flaws with his logic, and moves on.
3) Nevada makes a dumb decision to not grandfather in existing customers. SolarCity along with all solar stocks falls.
4) Chanos returns and continues to pound the table.
5) Elon announces proposed Tesla - Solarcity merger too soon after Chanos and broad market factors that have nothing to do with SolarCity have beaten up the stock.
6) Chanos pounds the table calling Elon crazy and says the deal is crazy, and says Elon is making a bad decision.
7) SpaceX incident (possible sabotage) causes paniic for anything related to Elon.
8) Random lawyers and supposed experts say they don't think the SEC will approve the firm and that neither firm did proper DD.
9) Bob Lutz, and the BS paid Putz - Spiegel begin to appear on TV every other week.


* i could list about 20 other things (I might in a future post) , but I think it's fair to say the stock falling from ~$26 - $16 has nothing to do with SolarCity, the company.

There hasn't been a single positive article about SolarCity in weeks, people on TMC are believing that the deal won't happen because of the stock price, and no analysts optimistic about the merger have commented on the matter.

I think you're missing the real main events like SCTY's bad Q2 earnings report and the recent S-4 filing that showed SCTY having difficult raising money. Elon needing to pay for bonds since (I'm assuming) no other parties would give money to SCTY (even at 6.5% over 18 months), which seemed like a "lifeline" to the company. Lots of poor financial news for SCTY. But on the other hand they did manage to raise $300M but at high cost of capital and not sure it's even sustainable, and I'm even skeptical of that all the terms were made public.
 
It has happened several times the Porsche EV news came on Fridays. Probably just coincidence. Are these guys by any chance playing stock options? In 2008, the third richest person in Germany lost his entire wealth during the VW short squeeze. The party on the long side was Porsche family, they made a lot of money in that squeeze. The VW squeeze started when the Porsche family commented publicly that "there are not enough shares to cover the shorts". I guess they know a bit of stocks, and know how powerful news/comments can influence stocks.

I think today's rally was mainly due to technical reasons. Yesterday TSLA went above $196.5 was a confirmed "buy" signal.
 
In my opinion, the main risk for SolarCity was if Nevada PUC didn't agree to grandfather in existing Solar customers. This would have created a mess of lawsuits against the Nevada PUC, that would have been very expensive and possibly taken years to settle, and basically stranded those customers for a long time. It also might have forced a lot of those people into Bankruptcy. This would have possibly set back the Solar industry years. Reaching this agreement is particularly important since Tesla has a very unique plans for Nevada.

it looks like the grandfather has been approved, voted 3-0, so less risk for SCTY.

Nevada Approves SolarCity’s Deal With Berkshire’s NV Energy

Nevada approves SolarCity, Berkshire unit's rooftop solar pact
 
The risk factors in fillings are mostly a matter of formality. Also, it's entirely possible that even Lyndon Rive doesn't fully understand SCTY's financial position, considering how complicated it is.

I did actually spend several painful days trying to understand what was going on; a lot of the problems are common to all solar installers operating in the US and selling to the not-very-rich market. The main obfustication is the damn "tax equity financing" stuff. The problem is that this contaminates practically everything in the financial reports. It's actually pretty harmless, though.

The key thing to understand is that every solar panel which wasn't sold outright (or sold with a bank loan) is put in some sort of trust or partnership. That trust or partnership receives the lease or PPA payments. It pays SolarCity for maintenance services. This is all well and good (as long as there are no warranty issues) and is completely harmless.

The thing which got SolarCity in trouble is that SolarCity financed a lot of these themselves: they paid for large hunks of the installation upfront and were getting repaid by the homeowner (via the trust) over 20 years. If one of these is "fully monetized", then that means someone else (Soros, or whoever) pays off SolarCity's initial installation costs and buys the future revenue stream. If I'm not mistaken, Solarcity *still* gets to take its maintenance costs off the top, so that's not a risk.

Back to the trusts which SolarCity still holds themselves. Most of them were partly paid for by the "tax equity investors", who gave SolarCity cash in exchange for the ability to use the tax deduction. Usually slightly less cash than the tax deduction was worth, but it's a good deal if neither the homeowner nor Solarcity has enough income to use the tax deduction. (Note that if SolarCity were part of a profitable business, they could use the tax deduction themselves.) However, the tax deduction is roughly 30%, so most of these still require 70% financing.

Again, look at the trusts which SolarCity still holds themselves. In some cases, SolarCity secured long-term 20-year loans to pay for them. This is fine. The income from the homeowner paying their lease goes to pay the loan, month by month. This is probably profitable, and even if it's at a small loss, it's a tiny bleed.

But again, look at the trusts which SolarCity still holds themselves where they *didn't* do this. Here lies the big problem. For some of these they were financed by 6-month loans. This is no good. The main risk for SolarCity *sudden bankruptcty* (as opposed to just, well, doing poorly, which could happen for a number of other reasons) was that they would be unable to refinance these at reasonable rates for 20 years.

There's an added problem: the stock markets simply don't value the out-year income streams. SCTY had made hundreds of presentations pointing out that this was real money coming in and that the credit default risk was extremely low, but the stock market investors don't care, and basically value it at 0.

The health of SolarCity financially is, therefore, absolutely tied to the ability to immediately monetize all the PPAs and leases by selling them to people who do value the out-year income streams. Because the Rives... aren't great businessmen.... they weren't doing this earlier. There seems to be a deliberate and aggressive program to do this now. Make of it what you will; I think it's a very good sign.

Once the PPAs and leases are *all* monetized, the financial statements will look a lot more comprehensible. There will still be bizarrely large entries for "minority interest" revenues (that's the people who own the future revenues from the trusts) but you will be able to basically subtract those from the revenues to get the "true" revenues.
 
I also see synergies... but most of all it allows Tesla Energy to get into the solar system market and offer a complete system w/battery storage to residential, commercial and utility. Thus, the synergy argument makes a lot of sense and I agree with it. This was the main reason why I was for the merger when it was first announced.

However, I think it's just perspective. If you trust SCTY's management and how they portray their debt/liabilities... then I can see why you'd like the merger. It's just that I don't trust their management and I think there's a good chance their debt is more toxic than they're letting on. And I don't want Tesla touching that stuff or being exposed to it, especially during a critical time like Model 3 ramp.
It's hilarious that we reversed positions. I was initially strongly against the merger because I knew SCTY's business model was a danger and had huge financial risks. I've been won over by the management's statements that they're reversing their business model choices, the evidence that they are actually doing so, and by Musk's obvious desire to take the company in a different direction *personally*
 
Dave, I think the "difference maker" to use your phrase will be when $100s of billions are spent on new battery factories. at current costs, it would take roughly $1 trillion to build battery manufacturing infrastructure to turnover fully from ICE to long range EVs.

beyond not having the money to do that in years rather than decades, the ICE automakers have a myriad of reasons financial, cultural, and personal, to slow this transition down as much as they can, so to speak, get away with (I don't see this as stupid, 'evil', or necessarily bad... until I see these big players (or battery partners) each spending at least as much as Tesla on battery plants, it looks like the bulk of electrification will be plugin hybrids (i.e., how can you take mfgs who build ten million vehicles a year as seriously moving to long range EVs if they've not even decided to build anything remotely like the one factory on the planet that was conceived of to make enough batteries for a half million cars) given the amount of miles the average person drives per day, that's actually a pretty efficient use of new battery supply coming online).

it's likely what modest move the other automakers do to long range EVs will be largely concentrated at the Model S/X price point. S/X sales growth may be impacted by this within 5-10 years.

Model 3, Y sales? Dave I strongly doubt we need to be concerned about any impact from other EVs any earlier than 2030 at the earliest. Within a couple of years I see the Model 3 being plainly better to the majority of consumers in that price range ($30K and up considering gas savings). there must be at least something like 75-100 ICE vehicle options in that price point. I'm not concerned if there are 5 or 20 or 50 long range BEV options in that price range from other manufacturers. until many hundreds of billions are spent on battery plants, Tesla will sell as many 3/Y as they can crank out.
First, I think auto makers will get a lot of help with battery manufacturing from the likes of BYD, LG Chem, and Samsung SDI. Each of them have multiple batteries factories and are aggressively building more. It only takes 18-24 months for them to get a battery factory online, so they're able to scale production if they have more demand. BYD is already spending billions on battery production and has aggressive plans, almost as aggressive as Tesla's GF.

Second, the combination of ride-sharing and autonomous driving will dramatically lower the cars required to be on the road. The 1 billion worldwide vehicle fleet will likely need to be shrunk down to 200-300 million cars and that could be done a 5-10 year period as well. In other words, we might only need to be making 20-40 million cars a year in 2030. This will bring down the requirements for battery production significantly.

Regarding competition, I guess we'll just choose to disagree on this. I see competition coming sooner (within 2-3 years) than later (5-10 years). Mainly because I think it's all about the costs, and LG Chem has proven they can build cells at low cost. Cars like the Audi electric SUV (Audi will launch 300-mile fully-electric SUV in 2018), we could have considered vaporware. But now with the Bolt and it's low-cost cells, we need to take Audi's electric SUV seriously, in my opinion. I think it will be good competition for the Model X. We'll see. As long as they can get the cost down (which it appears LG Chem has succeeded in doing), I think Audi can make good electric cars. Same goes for BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, etc. I think it's only a matter of time before all these manufacturers get into the game and come out with long-range EVs. And I think those cars will be competitive. I'm not selling they will outsell Tesla. Just saying there will be competition.
 
Here's where I disagree on a few points. First, I think it's really up in the air how much their old leases/PPAs are worth. But I think it depends whether you trust management and what they say or not. If you do, then you're more positive on what their assets are worth. If you don't trust their management and what they say, then you're more negative (like me). In my case, I think their debt outweighs their assets.

Ehhh... I think you haven't calculated this rightly. This is not a profit/loss question, it's a cashflow question. The main question is *not* how much their old leases/PPAs are worth, but whether they can monetize them faster than they need to refinance their expiring debt and finance their ongoing operations losses. I admit this is not easy to predict. Maybe they won't be able to. The first thing they need to do is stop digging: stop selling leases and PPAs which aren't prefinanced, and sack lots of salespeople.

So far they've been growing too fast, but they said that they understand that. Moving out of Nevada (for new sales) will actually help.

Also, I think restructuring and shrinking SCTY will cost an immense amount of money in the short term (over probably 12 months or longer).
Musk doesn't think so.
 
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