Should EVs Make Artificial Sounds at Low Speeds?

[NEWDL]

I vote E. Leave your hands off my electric car...... Cars are much quieter than trains... do you think then the car came out in the early 1900s they wanted to make it as loud as the trains?

I think I am going to carry around a noise maker with me so that when I am walking around everyone knows where I am at all times...

Tick-tacks anyone? (Seinfeld reference)

 

[vfx]

Adding Sounds to the Silence of Electric Cars | PRIs The World

balanced

 

[doug]

Adding Sounds to the Silence of Electric Cars | PRIs The World

balanced

When I heard this yesterday, I didn't find it balanced. Lisa Mullins introduces the story by saying, "Electric vehicles and hybrids can be pretty quiet. Now that might be boring to some, but it's definitely dangerous." To me a balanced report would have mentioned who's pushing for this noise and a discussion of whether or not there actually is a danger instead of just assuming there is.

You can listen to the audio here: Audio: Play | Download

 

[vfx]

When I heard this yesterday, I didn't find it balanced. Lisa Mullins introduces the story by saying, "Electric vehicles and hybrids can be pretty quiet. Now that might be boring to some, but it's definitely dangerous." To me a balanced report would have mentioned who's pushing for this noise and a discussion of whether or not there actually is a danger instead of just assuming there is.

You can listen to the audio here: Audio: Play | Download

Without listening, the copy reads pretty balanced. Any car is dangerous and a quiet one is arguably more so. There were both sides presented which is more than most articles do but you are right, there is not an option to noisemakers offered (defensive driving, transmitter receiver) so in that way (where it is important) it is not balanced.

 

[Mycroft]

From Bloomberg: Electric, Hybrid Cars to Be Required to Sound Pedestrian Alerts

The U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration will propose a rule requiring electric and hybrid vehicles to sound an alert under certain conditions to alert pedestrians to their presence.

NHTSA by law must write a standard by July 4, 2012 for an alert system that doesn’t require action by a driver or pedestrian to activate it, the notice said. All vehicles of the same make and model must have the same alert sound, the notice said. ... Covered electric and hybrid vehicles will have to comply if they are manufactured in September of the calendar year that begins three years after the rule’s final publication.

They don't say if they're going to require us to hire a flag bearer to walk in advance of the car. This so reminds me of the laws that were enacted when "horseless carriages" were first introduced. At least our Roadsters and Model S cars won't be included.

 

[ggr]

From Bloomberg: Electric, Hybrid Cars to Be Required to Sound Pedestrian Alerts





They don't say if they're going to require us to hire a flag bearer to walk in advance of the car. This so reminds me of the laws that were enacted when "horseless carriages" were first introduced. At least our Roadsters and Model S cars won't be included.

These notices are called NPRM, which means Notice of PROPOSED Rule Making. This would be a really great time for people to write to (I guess) the DOT and complain. It sometimes helps.

 

[kgb]

These notices are called NPRM, which means Notice of PROPOSED Rule Making. This would be a really great time for people to write to (I guess) the DOT and complain. It sometimes helps.

I was looking around their website (Laws & Regulations | National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)) and I couldn't find where I could send my comments. Any way to email them my comments?

 

[William13]

You found the right site. Thanks. We all need to chime in to prevent a cacophony and tragedy. All cars are becoming quieter and their cited case control study is poorly done. They cite one poorly done study as cause to proceed. Typical bureaucratic action.
To find the information you seek: go to the site you have linked. Then click on notice of intent.... On the next page again click on "notice of intent.". This should open a 27 page PDF that tells all including ways to contact them. Sorry I don't do techie very well.

 

[kgb]

OK, I was at work, so I didn't read it carefully. I was skimming. This is what I found out:

[Docket No. NHTSA-2011-0100]

You may submit comments to the docket number identified in the heading of this document by any of the following methods:
• Federal eRulemaking Portal: Go to Regulations.gov. Follow the online instructions for submitting comments.
• Mail: Docket Management Facility, M-30, U.S. Department of Transportation, West Building, Ground Floor, Room W12-140, 1200 New Jersey Avenue, S.E., Washington, DC 20590.
• Hand Delivery or Courier: U.S. Department of Transportation, West Building, Ground Floor, Room W12-140, 1200 New Jersey Avenue, S.E., Washington, DC, between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. Eastern time, Monday through Friday, except Federal holidays.
• Fax: 202-493-2251. Regardless of how you submit your comments, you should mention the docket number of this document.
[• Phone: ] You may call the Docket at 202-366-9324.

Note that all comments received, including any personal information provided, will be posted without change to Regulations.gov.

A vehicle manufacturer would be required to conduct a recall and provide remedy without charge if its vehicles were determined to fail to comply with the standard or if the alert sound system were determined to contain a safety related defect.

Finally, the Pedestrian Safety Act requires NHTSA to conduct a study and report to Congress whether the agency believes that there is a safety need to require alert sounds for motor vehicles with internal combustion engines.

 

[kgb]

In spite of reading the whole thing and following their instructions, I was still unable to submit my comments.

Here are my three concerns (not fleshed out for submission, these are just brief notes):

1) Contributes to noise pollution. Additional random noise will actually make it harder to hear. Just as it is harder to make out a conversation when near a construction site, additional noise pollution will make it harder to hear for people who depend on their sense of hearing. Making ambient noise quieter would be more effective to improve pedestrian safety.

2) A "cross-over" speed that causes the car to emit an irritating noise will encourage some drivers to drive faster.

3) If safety is really the concern, why single out EV or HV. Many luxury ICE vehicles are quiet and pose the same risk. Personally, I've walked away from my Lexus many time while it was still on.

While reading the Notice of Intent, they mentioned the appropriateness of the sound for various environments, such as National Parks. It got me thinking about this...

4) Imagine this scenario: You are driving through the woods, you notice a bear/deer/rare bird, you slow down and say, "hey kids look at this rare sight." As you slow below the "cross-over" speed, some horrible noise is emitted from your car scaring the animal away.

I remember as a kid, they ran TV PSA's in New York City begging people to stay off the horn and avoid other unnecessary noise because it adds to "noise pollution." Finally we are working towards a quieter environment for us to live in, yet the government is requiring that we make artificial noise. Sad.

 

[vfx]

Fiscal.

How many millions are spent on freeway sound walls?

 

[stopcrazypp]

Finally, the Pedestrian Safety Act requires NHTSA to conduct a study and report to Congress whether the agency believes that there is a safety need to require alert sounds for motor vehicles with internal combustion engines.

The limited study they did to support this Act didn't even have statistically significant data that supports requiring such alert sounds for EVs and hybrids. It was decidely inconclusive. It seems they are going to be lot more lenient about ICE cars, which is completely unfair. Given the adoption rate of EVs and hybrids, it'll take a long time before they overtake even the volume of luxury cars, so even if there is statistical data to support it, it'll have limited impact unless we also make sure luxury cars don't get away.

It sounds like they will only take the average profile for ICE, which discriminates by technology. If they were fair, they would set a minimum sound level that all cars have to comply with, irrespective of technology. If it turns out quiet luxury cars get away without an alert, this would also reek of classism.

 

[efxjim]

Most of the sound on the freeway is tire noise. We can hardly claim to be quiet in that regard.

 

[kgb]

The "Notice of Intent" states that after their research, they have 5 alternative solutions to the quiet car danger that they could pursue.

Alternative 2: Recordings of Actual Internal Combustion Engine Sounds

In another thread, I think @daniel put it nicely:

There's a guy who converts Porsches to electric, and then he'll sell you a CD of loud engine noise. That's like running your drinking water through a filter and then pissing in it.

 

[vfx]

Most of the sound on the freeway is tire noise. We can hardly claim to be quiet in that regard.

Speed dependent. A traffic jam of EVs is going to be be much quieter than an ICE equivalent.

There was a video (I can't find) that had a series of ICEs drive by and then a bunch of EVs drive by the same mics. They EVs were quieter.

 

[William13]

EV tire noise is typically quieter due to use of high efficiency tires.

 

[vfx]

EV tire noise is typically quieter due to use of high efficiency tires.

Hmm..
If that's the case then it won't last forever. Someday in the future when EVs easily get 500 miles a charge, then cars will start looking like whatever designers want again. Boxy, inefficient (including tires) will come back. Wasteful as it is.

 

[SByer]

Safety theatre. Pure, f'n safety theatre. Morons.

 

[vfx]

Great news in the UK!

The Government will this week reject calls for artificial warning noises to be broadcast by the zero-emission vehicles, despite concerns raised by campaigners for blind and partially sighted people.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/quiet-electric-cars-pose-no-danger-to-visually-impaired-2319557.html

Now let's all join in!!

 

[malcolm]

Great news in the UK!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/quiet-electric-cars-pose-no-danger-to-visually-impaired-2319557.html

Now let's all join in!!

If normal conversation is 60-70dB, then just wind down your window and talk loudly; Or you could play a recording of a really bad domestic arguement.

This sound thing is just a lot of hot air anyway.

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html