I agree with you, but would point out that the general sound level on a golf course is usually much less than in a city.
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Should EVs Make Artificial Sounds at Low Speeds?
- Thread starter Brent
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I agree with you, but would point out that the general sound level on a golf course is usually much less than in a city.
The idea that pigeons or any bird relies on just their ears for survival is ludicrous. Those owls and hawks don't throat out a mighty screech when they dive bomb on winged-rats.
Nor do cats, coyotes, and snakes howl and hiss tipping their hand when when on a killing charge.
If a pigeon with eyes on both sides of it's head can't see an elephant sized automobile heading towards it, have the brains to fly away at their top speed of 50 miles per hour only to end up as sidewalk vulture-snack, it's natural selection.
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Arnold Panz
Model Sig 304, VIN 542
Yeah, but most of the noise in the city is caused by ICEs in the first place! I mean, if a jackhammer is going right near a car, nothing (including animals) is going to hear the car coming. Singling out EVs and putting artificial sound on them because everything else around them is loud seems to be going in the wrong direction -- we should be trying to figure out ways to quiet everything else, not add to the din.
We are back to the old myth that engine noise as opposed to tyre noise is the dominant contributor.
I'm surprised we haven't had lots of angry blogs and tweets (or should that be coos) from the pigeon fanciers' community already...
I'm surprised we haven't had lots of angry blogs and tweets (or should that be coos) from the pigeon fanciers' community already...
I think the only extra noise I could countenance on electrics would be some kind of gentle beep upon startup or at low speeds, similar to that used on large trucks while backing up.
While walking home from the gym the other day, I was surprised to find myself unthinkingly moving aside to "safety" when I heard an engine start. It wasn't a conscious action. It was reflexive; I heard the motor, and moved. It might be useful to have some similar alert on electrics, where there is now no warning sound of a stationary car about to move.
As such, if electrics need noise for safety purposes, I think it should only be when they are started or going slow, below perhaps 9mph, and only when they are, in fact, quieter than ICEs.
While walking home from the gym the other day, I was surprised to find myself unthinkingly moving aside to "safety" when I heard an engine start. It wasn't a conscious action. It was reflexive; I heard the motor, and moved. It might be useful to have some similar alert on electrics, where there is now no warning sound of a stationary car about to move.
As such, if electrics need noise for safety purposes, I think it should only be when they are started or going slow, below perhaps 9mph, and only when they are, in fact, quieter than ICEs.
I just wrote up this quick piece for the next Electric Automobile Association newsletter (Current Events).
The solution looking for a problem.
Re. HR 5734 - GovTrack: H.R. 5734 [110th]: Text of Legislation, Introduced in House
There is currently a bill before the House of Representatives that would require all automobiles to emit a minimum amount of noise at low speed. The impetus for this bill comes from the “blind coalition.” The idea is that if blind people cannot see a car, then a quiet car is a hazard.
I cannot fathom a good reason for cars to purposefully emit sound at ANY speed. This is a silly, expensive solution looking for a problem. And it is a “solution” that may well make all pedestrians *less* safe. Most car makers are currently assuming that this requirement will soon be law, and are scrambling to figure out how best to incorporate it – instead of working on a multitude of other more important aspects to get more EVs and hybrids on the road sooner.
Car makers have spent untold millions trying to make ICE vehicles almost silent. And now we're on the cusp of legislating that they all make a minimum amount of noise. Having cars make noise so that they can be heard over the other cars is akin to the futility of always needing to drive a larger car than your neighbor to ensure the safety of your family. It is self-defeating. In a truly quiet environment, "silent" cars can be heard easily. It is typically the din of all the other cars that masks the signature sounds of EVs and hybrids. Oh... and what do we do about the segment of our population that is deaf? Legislate that all cars also need to be painted day-glow green so they will stand out from the other brightly-colored cars? If we all depend on sound to locate dangerous, mobile cars in parking lots, we’ll be in big trouble if one of the noisemakers breaks. And while all the cars are making noise, how are we expected to hear other pedestrians and cyclists around us?
Quiet cars may pose a bit of a challenge for a small subset of our population. And this small subset of our population should work on ways to keep themselves safe. These same quiet cars create a more beneficial environment for the bulk of the population. Gas cars kill thousands of people indiscriminately every year due to the pollution they emit. Should we maybe be putting our time and effort into fixing the problem that is unquestionably killing people before we fool with the "problem" that does more good than harm? We don’t need more noise pollution, and we don’t need more stumbling blocks put in front of the companies who are trying to bring the cars to market that will benefit the *entire* population.
Thousands of sighted pedestrians are struck and killed by our current crop of "loud" cars every year. The sound they make doesn't seem to increase the safety of these cars. What we need is more personal responsibility in the case of drivers and pedestrians (iPods anybody?) alike. As drivers, it is our responsibility to be aware of everything around us. As pedestrians and cyclists, it is our responsibility to stay out of harm’s way. Put those two concepts together, and we have a safe situation for everybody that does NOT involve increasing our noise pollution or saddling the budding EV industry with a useless (and possibly harmful) requirement.
The solution looking for a problem.
Re. HR 5734 - GovTrack: H.R. 5734 [110th]: Text of Legislation, Introduced in House
There is currently a bill before the House of Representatives that would require all automobiles to emit a minimum amount of noise at low speed. The impetus for this bill comes from the “blind coalition.” The idea is that if blind people cannot see a car, then a quiet car is a hazard.
I cannot fathom a good reason for cars to purposefully emit sound at ANY speed. This is a silly, expensive solution looking for a problem. And it is a “solution” that may well make all pedestrians *less* safe. Most car makers are currently assuming that this requirement will soon be law, and are scrambling to figure out how best to incorporate it – instead of working on a multitude of other more important aspects to get more EVs and hybrids on the road sooner.
Car makers have spent untold millions trying to make ICE vehicles almost silent. And now we're on the cusp of legislating that they all make a minimum amount of noise. Having cars make noise so that they can be heard over the other cars is akin to the futility of always needing to drive a larger car than your neighbor to ensure the safety of your family. It is self-defeating. In a truly quiet environment, "silent" cars can be heard easily. It is typically the din of all the other cars that masks the signature sounds of EVs and hybrids. Oh... and what do we do about the segment of our population that is deaf? Legislate that all cars also need to be painted day-glow green so they will stand out from the other brightly-colored cars? If we all depend on sound to locate dangerous, mobile cars in parking lots, we’ll be in big trouble if one of the noisemakers breaks. And while all the cars are making noise, how are we expected to hear other pedestrians and cyclists around us?
Quiet cars may pose a bit of a challenge for a small subset of our population. And this small subset of our population should work on ways to keep themselves safe. These same quiet cars create a more beneficial environment for the bulk of the population. Gas cars kill thousands of people indiscriminately every year due to the pollution they emit. Should we maybe be putting our time and effort into fixing the problem that is unquestionably killing people before we fool with the "problem" that does more good than harm? We don’t need more noise pollution, and we don’t need more stumbling blocks put in front of the companies who are trying to bring the cars to market that will benefit the *entire* population.
Thousands of sighted pedestrians are struck and killed by our current crop of "loud" cars every year. The sound they make doesn't seem to increase the safety of these cars. What we need is more personal responsibility in the case of drivers and pedestrians (iPods anybody?) alike. As drivers, it is our responsibility to be aware of everything around us. As pedestrians and cyclists, it is our responsibility to stay out of harm’s way. Put those two concepts together, and we have a safe situation for everybody that does NOT involve increasing our noise pollution or saddling the budding EV industry with a useless (and possibly harmful) requirement.
Nobody seems to know just who started all of this. I've heard "blind coalition" and "advocacy for the blind." Honestly, I don't know what it means, and I don't believe that a group of blind folks came up with this. The blind folks that I know are quite reasonable... and their hearing ability is leaps and bounds ahead of mine.
Looking at this chart I found on http://www.vti.se/EPiBrowser/Publikationer/S345.pdf the entire discussion indeed seems moot:
Is engine noise really that insignificant? While driving a Roadster the absence of noise felt quite significant.
Is engine noise really that insignificant? While driving a Roadster the absence of noise felt quite significant.
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johnr
Member
My mother taught me to always look both ways before crossing the street ... apparently there are people who are not so fortunate.:tongue:
Yesterday, whilst surprising a friend; you know what I mean; let's go for a ride; you drive... now press the go pedal! We rounded a corner to find a young girl, maybe 10-11 years old in the middle of the road messing around on a scooter... with iPOD. We rolled up, waited... waited some more and finally she turns around, spots us and scoot's off. We could have been in a regular car, a truck or even a small detached bungelow; she was in her own world, a world of pretty flowers and cars made of marshmallow.
You can't make this stuff up because it happens every day; it's not the car that's broken.
Tdave
Member
Yes, "felt". Not only is there no sound at low speed there is also no vibration. That's just as significant difference for the occupants, at least.
