Should EVs Make Artificial Sounds at Low Speeds?

[vfx]

Thanks for that. I was just thinking that I just want this thread to go away.

Good point Dave had about what the white cane is for

that's what a white cane is for, to alert others that a particular individual is visually handicapped and to pay special attention. After all, it is the responsibility of the operator of a motor vehicle to yeild to pedestrian traffic.

I will remember this one.

 

[EVnut]

When questioned, Chelsea uses a similar answer. She says the technology of a given car does not absolve the driver from operating the vehicle safely.

 

[DaveD]

Japan may add noise to quiet hybrid cars for safety - Yahoo! News

Japan's near-silent hybrid cars have been called dangerous by the vision-impaired and some users, prompting a government review on whether to add a noise-making device, according to an official.

 

[malcolm]

"On the other hand, we should pay attention to residents (along roads) as hybrids are excellent in reducing noise," the official added.

We can only hope that some sort of trial happens and that potential customers are asked if a noise generator would put them off buying the car.

 

[malcolm]

*sigh*

BBC Radio 4 - You and Yours - transcript

Which is why Lotus has been working on this and it wants a minimum noise level for electric cars because what you're about to hear is the sound of an electric car with an artificial noise synthesiser attached which bumps up the sound of the electric car so that it's easier to hear.

Here's what Lotus have to say about their Safe and Sound Hybrid Project:

http://www.grouplotus.com/managedcontent/view/119

(Link to the above is on this page: http://www.grouplotus.com/engineering/research.html

 

[vfx]

*sigh*
...
Here's what Lotus have to say about their Safe and Sound Hybrid Project:

#&%@!

Maybe when the head of Lotus steps down this lame idea will go with him.. :frown:

 

[Mark Petersen]

One question we could ask a Tesla technicians, is how they avoid getting run down, while other technicians are driving around in there work area

also if they pass a law that cars have to make noise, they shout also ban mp3 players :tongue:

hmm wonder how do a deaf and blind person get around

 

[dpeilow]

I wonder who or what is funding this Lotus project? I doubt it is being 100% funded in-house. It sounds like the sort of thing where public funds are offered to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Companies tend to take the money, make a couple of announcements and then stick the results on a shelf to gather dust.

 

[vfx]

...and then stick the results on a shelf to gather dust.

From your keyboard...

 

[malcolm]

I wonder who or what is funding this Lotus project?

A cabal of disgruntled ICE drag racers who have to stop driving at 10pm

 

[malcolm]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/13/business/energy-environment/13iht-green13.html

“What evidence is there, that there is a safety issue with quiet vehicles?”

Very little, according to the U.S. Department of Transportation. Rae Tyson, a spokesman for the department’s highway traffic safety division, said his agency, with the prodding of the National Federation of the Blind and other groups, has been analyzing pedestrian fatality data for some time, to uncover any increased hazard posed by “quiet cars.”

“We’ve not seen evidence that there is a safety issue,” Mr. Tyson said — though he added that this does not mean it could not one day become a problem.

The agency is conducting field tests that measure the comparative audibility of hybrids and conventional cars.

"Could not one day become a problem"? As roads become quieter, I'd have thought the opposite would be true.

Blind Guy on the Priuschat forum (via EV NUt's post above) mentions the nfb:

http://quietcars.nfb.org/ The National Federation for the Blind wants quieter cars to emit an "inoffensive sound" which, unfortunately is wide open to interpretation.

Depending on background noise levels, an inoffensive sound can become very irritating. And these cars will ALWAYS be making it at low speeds. Fun for the neighbours early in the morning and late at night.

The study mentioned in the NYT article is this one : http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Video/Larry_Rosenblum_Quiet_Cars.wmv which identifies 0-15 mph as the critical range. Above 15 mph there is sufficient tire and wind noise. Nevertheless, this test recommends sound generators cut in below 20 mph to allow for different background levels.

However some manufacturers - such as Fisker - want to offer sound generators which function over the entire speed range and are much more audible.

It looks like sound generators are set to get a bad name for themselves - and their owners.

 

[vfx]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/13/business/energy-environment/13iht-green13.html?_r=1 (just to have it here)

For some — particularly those unnerved by the persistent din of modern, motorized civilization — that is a welcome virtue. Several studies, after all, suggest a strong link between ill health and persistent noise. Earlier this year, the Karolinska Institute in Sweden reported an “association” between long-term exposure to road traffic noise and the risk of myocardial infarction, or heart attack — though the authors of the study emphasized that more research was needed.

The article lists off several companies with sound generating projects going on. When their lobby people hit Washington, who will counter them?

 

[malcolm]

When their lobby people hit Washington, who will counter them?

The Act is currently in Committee.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:S.841.IS:

H.R. 734: Pedestrian Safety Enhancement Act of 2009 (GovTrack.us)

SEC. 4. STUDY OF METHOD TO PROTECT BLIND AND OTHER PEDESTRIANS.

(a) Required Study- Not later than 90 days following enactment of this Act, the Secretary shall conduct a study to--

(1) determine the most practical means of assuring that blind and other pedestrians receive substantially similar information to information such pedestrians receive from sound emitted by vehicles that use internal combustion engines;


(2) determine the minimum level of sound emitted from a motor vehicle that is necessary to provide blind pedestrians with the information needed to make safe travel judgments; and


(3) consider whether the minimum level of sound requirement or another method that conveys information essential for pedestrian safety provides the most reliable information to support safe travel of blind and other pedestrians, including--

(A) which method provides blind and other pedestrians the greatest amount of information regarding location, motion, speed, and direction of travel of a motor vehicle;


(B) the cost and feasibility of each method, including the cost and feasibility of equipping each individual pedestrian with any technology necessary to receive information; and


(C) which method assures the least reliance by blind and other pedestrians upon technology they must possess when traveling and thereby provides the greatest amount of independence and opportunity for spontaneous travel for these pedestrians.




(b) Required Consultation- When conducting the study, the Secretary shall--

(1) review all available research regarding the effect of traffic sounds on pedestrian safety, and commission such research as may be necessary;


(2) consult consumer groups representing individuals who are blind, other pedestrians, cyclists, and advocates for children; and


(3) consult with automobile manufacturers and professional organizations representing them.



(c) Report- The Secretary shall complete the study within 2 years of its commencement and shall transmit a report of the findings to Congress.


SEC. 5. MINIMUM SOUND REQUIREMENT FOR MOTOR VEHICLES.

Not later than 90 days after conclusion of the study required under section 4, the Secretary shall promulgate a motor vehicle safety standard under section 30111 of title 49, United States Code, to establish a method for alerting blind and other pedestrians of the presence and operation of nearby motor vehicles to enable such pedestrians to travel safely and independently in urban, rural, and residential environments. Such standard shall provide that every motor vehicle be equipped with a method--

(1) to provide blind and other pedestrians with a non-visual alert regarding the location, motion, speed, and direction of travel of a motor vehicle that provides substantially the same protection of such pedestrians as that provided by a motor vehicle with an internal combustion engine; and


(2) that will permit a blind or other pedestrian to determine the location, motion, speed, and direction of travel of a motor vehicle with substantially the same degree of certainty as such pedestrians are able to determine the location, motion, speed, and direction of travel of a motor vehicle with an internal combustion engine.

If all this goes ahead, it will start to impact on car manufacture for the US market in 2014 (manufacturers having a further 2 yrs to comply)

 

[vfx]

While reading I was heartened by the the use of the term "motor vehicle".

Again, if the study is wide enough to study the quiet ICEs in Rolls Royce, Lexus, etc., then maybe the big car makers will push back more than they would if just electrics were affected.

 

[vfx]

Bob Sexton:

If The Blind Don't Like The Sound Of An EV, Can't They Drive Something Else?

 

[malcolm]

Unless visible enforcement measures are present, most drivers can usually be relied upon to view any speed limit as a minimum value. In terms of aerodynamic and tire noise this, ironically, is quiet useful.

Not that I am advocating speeding, but in terms of making cars as audible as possible, driving at or close to an urban speed limit is good.

Also on normal roads where 30 and 40mph limits apply, average speed only tends to reduce as the traffic density increases. Fortunately in these situations, typical driver behaviour will tend to leave fewer gaps between vehicles for pedestrians to step into. Any vehicles which have a sound volume which drops significantly at lower speeds will be proportionally closer to cars which don't.

Simplistically, it would seem that the risk of a pedestrian/quieter vehicle encounter is higher in areas where speed is restricted irrespective of traffic density such as supermarket parking lots and school zones.

In the latter case, there is already a good deal of intervention, both in terms of technology and campaigns:

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20090616/NEWS01/706159759

Keep Kids Alive Drive 25™ - It’s About Kids! It’s About Safety! It’s About Time

Are Roadster owners witnessing a greater need for awareness/wariness of pedestrians?

Anyone using a Roadster for the school run???

 

[Tdave]

In the Roadster's case, there are always plenty of ooohs and ahhhs to alert a blind person that it's coming.

 

[graham]

If Roadster owners are worried about their car being too quiet, they can just turn on the Air Conditioner. The blowers that turn on in the front of car are certainly noisier than the engine in most ICE cars.

 

[Mark Petersen]

hmm, wonder how loud we can be, who say we have to set the noice to the min level, to warn blind with hearing problem

I would like that the blind can get a devict (for free) that detect the EV (or any car below a specific db level) when it is aprotching (leaving can be optional), this device could also be used for crossing the street (red/green light) a sound increase at they get near the signal (other side), so that they can walk in a strait line (maybe it could b build in too the cane, so the sweeping action will help them in determining direction)
this transmitter shout be build into all cars that have a low idle sound level or all cars, as that would help deaf-blind people (vibrator in stead of sound)

as here in DK many blind have problem at Intersection with sound, as the neighbor are complaining that it is to loud, and they are complaining it is to low
and the technician is adjusting he just set it to a level he think it shout be

 

[vfx]

Are Roadster owners witnessing a greater need for awareness/wariness of pedestrians?

Absolutely!

And gladly.