Happy to see that both the conservatives AND the liberals are seeing eye to eye on this issue!
The trolls in the comments are frustrating though...
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Some good news for EV's in Canada!
- Thread starter McFlurri
- Start date
Happy to see that both the conservatives AND the liberals are seeing eye to eye on this issue!
The trolls in the comments are frustrating though...
Most youtubers don’t even bother with comment trolls, just not worth the effort.
Best way I’ve found to shut them up is have a couple refuting articles hotlinked so when they start up, post the refutation and ask them to prove their point. No troll is even gonna do work so most shut up or just throw an insult back and then leave.
Best way I’ve found to shut them up is have a couple refuting articles hotlinked so when they start up, post the refutation and ask them to prove their point. No troll is even gonna do work so most shut up or just throw an insult back and then leave.
Er yeah, never ever read YouTube comments. Stopped many years ago. It's almost like they have moron-bots that just generate stupid inane and inciting comments to try to get discussion going. Same with CBC and any of the other mainstream media. You read stuff that makes you kinda depressed for the future of humanity... Best to just ignore.
Wait - "Massive deal to boost the electric vehicle industry".... by giving $590M to Ford? I can see why Dougie said yes. Ford have yet to impress me on their EV credentials - electric F-150 seems to always be "soon" and I bet it will be premium-priced/low-availability and we've yet to see the Mach-E but they are already discounting before even bringing it out so it's not promising.
I guess it's better than nothing but new incentives for EV buyers would have been a fairer and better use of our money. Let Ford make a competitive product that justifies them investing instead of paying them and hoping.
I guess it's better than nothing but new incentives for EV buyers would have been a fairer and better use of our money. Let Ford make a competitive product that justifies them investing instead of paying them and hoping.
Completely agree. How much per job are we paying to keep Ford going? The established automakers are in danger of going broke when the world goes electric - except for the money our governments shovel to them. Tesla expects to be building 20+ million cars within a decade. Which automakers are going to lose that market share?
Struja
“Frost”
I actually didn’t see this as a positive at all. Why not invest the 600 million into EV incentives so that consumers can determine which electric cars they want to drive, force more competition and innovation in the EV industry? Dumping that money into a company which has yet to make a transformative EV seems like a waste. I get that they are trying to save jobs but I can think of several better ways to have spent that money.
TheRFMan
Member
It can be argued that the way they are doing it now, the money stays in Canada. At least that much (and much more really) gets paid out to Canadians working there, who spend the money and it generates a multiplier effect.
With no Canadian built EVs, incentives just end up causing money to leave the country, never to be seen again.
Whoever sees this as environmental policy is mistaken. This is a classic industrial policy move.
You need to look at the bigger picture.
Investments like these have the ability to keep Canada competitive into the future. Canada will have the infrastructure in place to create home grown EVs throughout the entire supply chain.
This isn't just about saving FORD jobs, but creating a new economy that focuses on sustainable energy capabilities IN Canada.
That's a big win!
I'm also against the idea of such an investment.
This is purely a way to please the unions and keep a zombie legacy company like Ford alive. It's nothing more than legally buying votes.
If the federal gov't really wanted Ford and other manufacturers... as well as Canadians to move to EV, just provide them with enough incentives.
For any Canadian made (not sold, but made) EV (with x% of Canadian made parts), it would receive y amount of tax rebate. Same thing for any Canadian, individual or company who purchase an EV instead of gas-powered vehicles. Say they can write off 30% of the car cost a year (if purchased outright) or up to 100% if leased/financed on their taxes
I am sure that would be enough incentive for many to switch without having to put 600M of taxpayer's money in Ford.
This is purely a way to please the unions and keep a zombie legacy company like Ford alive. It's nothing more than legally buying votes.
If the federal gov't really wanted Ford and other manufacturers... as well as Canadians to move to EV, just provide them with enough incentives.
For any Canadian made (not sold, but made) EV (with x% of Canadian made parts), it would receive y amount of tax rebate. Same thing for any Canadian, individual or company who purchase an EV instead of gas-powered vehicles. Say they can write off 30% of the car cost a year (if purchased outright) or up to 100% if leased/financed on their taxes
I am sure that would be enough incentive for many to switch without having to put 600M of taxpayer's money in Ford.
Just a small correction for those who may not watch the video.
The Federal and Provincial Governments are splitting the bill on the slightly less than $600 million, the other $1.2 Billion is coming from FORD MOTOR CO.
DMC-Orangeville
Audi eTron & John Deere 5100E
I gave you a disagree...nothing personal, but there's a lot more to this story
All of the legacy car makers in Canada (including Honda and Toyota) are struggling with electric vehicle production. On top of that, Canada is an expensive place to manufacture ANYTHING. Our labour laws, red tape and cost of labour makes it much more attractive to manufacture in Mexico, or any State with right to work rules and at-will termination.
I predicted that GM would exit Canada within 10 years of repaying the loan to the Ontario/Federal Governments. They're shuttering Oshawa, St Catharines is a shadow of what it was, as is Windsor, and Ingersoll will be the next victim. That's 10-15,000 jobs. GM is kissing us off. I'll never buy another GM product. Ever.
Fiat-Chrysler has a new plant in Windsor, and it makes the Pacifica plug-in, so it's probably good for now. The Brampton assembly plant is old....and without a contract in 2 years....so it could go.
Honda and Toyota both had expansions, but only produce gas vehicles.....Their mantra is to make cars where they sell them. It will be interesting to see if they re-tool for Hybrid or electric.
Ford has some parts plants, and Oakville assembly left. The truck plant and St Thomas car assembly were closed years ago. Oakville is old, and not cost efficient compared to US and Mexico plants. It was probably going to shut down.
Which brings me to my 3 main arguments:
1. Corporations make things where they can make better margins/maximize shareholder value. Many jurisdictions offer "deals" to keep businesses there. Our deal is to help them re-invent themselves with electric technology, and provide them intelligence in doing it. Ford is ponying up 2/3 of the cost. This will keep a lot of jobs and intellectual property in Canada. It will also prod Ford et al to move to electric.
2. There has also been mention of the supply to the auto industry. This is bigger than the manufacturing. Canadian companies like Centerline and ATS will make the assembly lines. Canadian parts suppliers like Linamar and Magna make hundreds of parts for these cars. The steel used is Canadian steel. The aluminium is Canadian aluminium. On the MRO side, there are hundreds of Canadian suppliers (My old company sold over $1,000,000 to the industry). The whole industry makes up well over 100,000 jobs. If we don't step up and support this, it would be disastrous to our economy.
3. The argument that we should use these funds to pay rebates does not have any ripple effect. Tesla, Audi, VW, Polestar etc. have no production in Canada, AND THEY NEVER WILL. With the exception of dealer profits, none of this rebate stays in Canada. I am not against rebates, but I think the Ford investment is a better use of funds.
/rant
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Yes but we all know the Ford spending will be nothing like that in actual new dollars - the creative accountants will have found a way to come up with as big a dollar amount as possible by combining every number they can pull from anywhere and inflating it. The $600M will disappear somewhere, Ford may or may not keep jobs in Ontario/Canada and may or may not end up building EVs here - I'm certain nothing in this "deal" will be legally binding, we've seen this before.
Most likely Ford was about to pull out on existing investments, Dougie and Justin asked "what will it take to stop you" (answer $600M) and the PR folks figured out that painting the cost as "green EV investment" would be the best way to get it through without a media onslaught. Primetime greenwashing.
Yes, some of what Ford invests will be creative accounting - but the previous posts make a good point. Many of the plants in Ontario are getting old. They need to be renewed or replaced, certainly retooled. Replace means it can go anywhere. To keep them in Ontario, it is worth the government spending some money. As also mentioned, the supplier and follow-on jobs are also important. Magna won't sell as many parts to the big 3 if they have to make them here and ship to Mexico. And so on...
If as the government seems to recognize, the future is really electrification - then having the factories here working on that will ensure they are more viable than if they just make a new version of an ICE vehicle. There will be suppliers for electrical components, probably battery plants, etc. Battery plants can repurpose and expand output for other devices like the Powerwall. Synergy. Are there provinces where significantly reducing your draw from the grid is a very good thing?
Having the infrastructure to support EV's is also important, so a government that recognizes this issue is very helpful. I see too, one of Biden's talking points is building a wide network of chargers across the USA. (I own a ChaDEMO adapter and I suspect if CCS dominates, sooner or later Tesla will have that adapter too.) having a decent charge network all over is a selling point for all EV's.
I agree, the grant is basic pork - but this is how business works in the capitalist world. And like infrastructure spending, grants to expand factories can have follow-on benefits. If it keeps the auto industry active in Ontario and drags it somewhat into to 21st century - then it's doing what was intended. As politicians argue in the USA, some wanted to let the big 3 go belly up in 2008, did not see the value of rescuing them. Fortunately others did, and the result has been some jobs for the last 12 years.
If as the government seems to recognize, the future is really electrification - then having the factories here working on that will ensure they are more viable than if they just make a new version of an ICE vehicle. There will be suppliers for electrical components, probably battery plants, etc. Battery plants can repurpose and expand output for other devices like the Powerwall. Synergy. Are there provinces where significantly reducing your draw from the grid is a very good thing?
Having the infrastructure to support EV's is also important, so a government that recognizes this issue is very helpful. I see too, one of Biden's talking points is building a wide network of chargers across the USA. (I own a ChaDEMO adapter and I suspect if CCS dominates, sooner or later Tesla will have that adapter too.) having a decent charge network all over is a selling point for all EV's.
I agree, the grant is basic pork - but this is how business works in the capitalist world. And like infrastructure spending, grants to expand factories can have follow-on benefits. If it keeps the auto industry active in Ontario and drags it somewhat into to 21st century - then it's doing what was intended. As politicians argue in the USA, some wanted to let the big 3 go belly up in 2008, did not see the value of rescuing them. Fortunately others did, and the result has been some jobs for the last 12 years.
That's why I suggested to have tax credits instead of rebates. (you save on the money you make, instead of taking money)
You are trying to justify the incompetence of legacy manufacturers and unions because they have unions behind them.
What I was proposing was to create an environment to make Canadian EV production feasible and competitive. It all comes down to numbers at the end of the day. And if you incentivize the production of EV components and/or products, as well as the purchase of those, it wouldn't be long before all the plants start to switch as it effectively puts ICE production/products more expensive in absolute terms after factoring in tax savings.
With direct investments, Ford isn't doing it because it wants to go EV, but rather to get 600m of free cash to invest in their factories.
Why do we need to pay attention to a few pixel farts. I guess I'm school that anything worth a damn saying is said in person (physically) and looking straight into the eyes of the message receiver. Anything is else a weak cyber fart easily ignored and silenced. So based on that my message is worthless. LoL
Everything said here is 100% true. This is why this announcement should be seen in the bipartisan light that it is. Whether you Red, Blue, Green or Orange.. this is a BIG deal for Canadians.
Well said!
I have to disagree with this.
Ontario had a $14,000 rebate in place to spur EV car sales. It did that quite effectively, however we saw NO serious investment from automakers to invest in new BEV technology into Canadian operations. Even after the current conservative government removed the rebates and the federal government brought in the $5000 national rebates... have we seen any investments come into Canada's auto sector for BEV's? No, we have not.
Unfortunately this appears to be the best option to finally spur infrastructure spending to modernize the entire Canadian auto supply chain (Manufacturing plants, parts suppliers, and the mining industries).
So we now have the $5000 incentive AND the incentive ( sub $600 million ) to production.
TheRFMan
Member
From the government's perspective, that's exactly the same thing. Look up "Tax Expenditure".
You need to realize that Canada isn't really cost-competitive in making ICE vehicles either. (we do very well on quality however). This isn't about providing an incentive so that auto companies make EVs instead of ICE. It's providing an incentive for them to keep building cars in Canada (any cars, really). It's even better that they can go the EV route, but they're really mostly trying to stop the exodus of the industry as a whole, ICE included.
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