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Some new data from research on Tesla model 3 cells

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There has recently been released a series of new research reports containing tests on Tesla Model 3 Cells (Panasonic 2170 NCA).
This is the calendar aging test from one of them (25C, 15, 50 and 85% SOC. Checkup once a month):
Using the datapoints from these and putting them in the old charts I ususally post, these match the olds ones quite good. As there is only three points, it do not show the real form of the curve, but all three points match the usual graphs.
IMG_1736.jpeg


For the cyclic tests, they did use rather high currents, not really respresentative to normal EV use. (To the researchers defense, the currents used is sort of the most EV-battery manufacturers current in the specifications but still not close to the regulkar EV usage).
Charged with 0.33C which would match about a 25kW DC charger, or double to four times the usual rate EV owners use mostly. Probably not offsetting the result much, but to be clear this is how it was done.

Discharged with 1C, which would be 78kW, about enough to drive constant at 200kph. This is way above the average power used from a regular EV. Driving at higway speeds at 120kph/80mph or so, we normally use like 1/4 of that power.
The average car often has a average speed longterm of about 50-60kph, meaning we often use 1/8-1/4 of the power in these cyclic tests.
From other tests we can se that lower power reduce the wear, the degradation often reduces to somewhere down to 0.5-0.7C.

In this report the author was a bit surprised over the increased wear at 5-15% SOC and 15-25% SOC. I would say that it it a very high probability of that this is induced by the 1C discharge rate, and that our normal power rates used IRL would make this look different. This is nothing I can promise but from several other research tests we can see that there ususally is a tendency to slightly increase the cyclic degradation at the lowest SOC ranges.

According to this chart, the best cycling range is 55 % down to 35%( see note below about true SOC).

Note: These are “True SOC”. 0% in this chart is where the car already has stopped, and 5% in-chart is about 0% displayed and 55% in-chart is is about 57% displayed.
IMG_1735.jpeg



As I said above, there is a high probability that the low SOC range wear much less with a lower C-rate. Anyway, due to the high impact of calendar aging we most certainly benefit from staying low in SOC.

For the first two years, we would loose about 9-9.5% from calendar aging if staying at high SOC.
During these two years, if we drive 15-20K km annually (10-15Kmiles), and stay in the very low regime cycling (5-25% true SOC, thats 0-20% displayed SOC) we would loose about 1% from ~ 75-100 FCE cycles during these two years/30-40K km.

IRL its not possible to stay that low in SOC without actively stopping the charging, as 50% is the lowest setting (but for reference to low /high SOC).

To reach the same level of cyclic degradation from low SOC cycling according to the chart we would need about 700FCE, or about 280K km, but that is not really possible to do and at the same time stay at 5-25% SOC.

So, a car charged to 80-90%, and used as most EV’s is used, will mostly be above 55% SOC and have a calendar aging close to the 85% graph.
After two years, it will be around 10% degradation if the average cell temp is about 25C.

If the car was charged to 50-55% it would have a calendar aging around 6%, and the cyclic aging would be half the high SOC car, so more or less negligeble.

Link to one report

[Edit]For what its worth, if someone is worried about the low SOC below 20% (I am not, but I’m aware of the classic forum rumors), charging to 50-55% and charging for the daily drives at or above 20% (not talking longer traveling here) all aspect of this report if ticked-in-the-box.

I will not change any of my charging behavior because of this report. There is from time to time small differences in the reports and usually the reason for that can be found by thorougly comparing with other tests. We need much more than one report to state a “fact”.
 
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Any reason to think this doesn’t apply to the LG 78.8 now being seen in the 2023 Model 3 LR AWD except for staying below 60% vs 55%

LG 78.8 is a NMCA, thats NMC with juuuust i little Aluminium added.
We have data showing that this batteri hold upp very well, pointing to slightly less calendar aging than the NCA cells has.

I haven’t seen a high resolution / multi point calendar aging graph for NMCA yet. But as NCA has it’s steep step at about 57-58% true SOC and the NMC has it’s at 62%, we can imagine that it will be somewhere around, most probably closer to NMC than NCA.
60% or below should probably be good, 55% or below is also safe,
Maybe gives a extra margin until we get the research data.

IMG_1548.jpeg
 
Is it correct to assume that the test definition of SOC/Calendar means that the SOC is maintained 24/7? If so, this may be significantly more degrading than a real-world usage of only holding that peak SOC for a small portion of the day.
Calendar aging happens all the time.
Look at the graph above, the calendar aging rate is about the same from 60-100%.
So the only really noticeble reduction comes at the time the battery is at about 55-60% or below.
 
There has recently been released a series of new research reports containing tests on Tesla Model 3 Cells (Panasonic 2170 NCA).
This is the calendar aging test from one of them (25C, 15, 50 and 85% SOC. Checkup once a month):
Using the datapoints from these and putting them in the old charts I ususally post, these match the olds ones quite good. As there is only three points, it do not show the real form of the curve, but all three points match the usual graphs.
View attachment 974580

For the cyclic tests, they did use rather high currents, not really respresentative to normal EV use. (To the researchers defense, the currents used is sort of the most EV-battery manufacturers current in the specifications but still not close to the regulkar EV usage).
Charged with 0.33C which would match about a 25kW DC charger, or double to four times the usual rate EV owners use mostly. Probably not offsetting the result much, but to be clear this is how it was done.

Discharged with 1C, which would be 78kW, about enough to drive constant at 200kph. This is way above the average power used from a regular EV. Driving at higway speeds at 120kph/80mph or so, we normally use like 1/4 of that power.
The average car often has a average speed longterm of about 50-60kph, meaning we often use 1/8-1/4 of the power in these cyclic tests.
From other tests we can se that lower power reduce the wear, the degradation often reduces to somewhere down to 0.5-0.7C.

In this report the author was a bit surprised over the increased wear at 5-15% SOC and 15-25% SOC. I would say that it it a very high probability of that this is induced by the 1C discharge rate, and that our normal power rates used IRL would make this look different. This is nothing I can promise but from several other research tests we can see that there ususally is a tendency to slightly increase the cyclic degradation at the lowest SOC ranges.

According to this chart, the best cycling range is 55 % down to 35%( see note below about true SOC).

Note: These are “True SOC”. 0% in this chart is where the car already has stopped, and 5% in-chart is about 0% displayed and 55% in-chart is is about 57% displayed.
View attachment 974582


As I said above, there is a high probability that the low SOC range wear much less with a lower C-rate. Anyway, due to the high impact of calendar aging we most certainly benefit from staying low in SOC.

For the first two years, we would loose about 9-9.5% from calendar aging if staying at high SOC.
During these two years, if we drive 15-20K km annually (10-15Kmiles), and stay in the very low regime cycling (5-25% true SOC, thats 0-20% displayed SOC) we would loose about 1% from ~ 75-100 FCE cycles during these two years/30-40K km.

IRL its not possible to stay that low in SOC without actively stopping the charging, as 50% is the lowest setting (but for reference to low /high SOC).

To reach the same level of cyclic degradation from low SOC cycling according to the chart we would need about 700FCE, or about 280K km, but that is not really possible to do and at the same time stay at 5-25% SOC.

So, a car charged to 80-90%, and used as most EV’s is used, will mostly be above 55% SOC and have a calendar aging close to the 85% graph.
After two years, it will be around 10% degradation if the average cell temp is about 25C.

If the car was charged to 50-55% it would have a calendar aging around 6%, and the cyclic aging would be half the high SOC car, so more or less negligeble.

Link to one report

[Edit]For what its worth, if someone is worried about the low SOC below 20% (I am not, but I’m aware of the classic forum rumors), charging to 50-55% and charging for the daily drives at or above 20% (not talking longer traveling here) all aspect of this report if ticked-in-the-box.

I will not change any of my charging behavior because of this report. There is from time to time small differences in the reports and usually the reason for that can be found by thorougly comparing with other tests. We need much more than one report to state a “fact”.
“According to this chart, the best cycling range is 55 % down to 35%( see note below about true SOC)”

Meaning charge (NCA Panasonic) to 80% and let it drain to 35-55% before charging back up to 80% or keeping it between 55% (charger limit) and at 35% charge it back to 55%?
 
“According to this chart, the best cycling range is 55 % down to 35%( see note below about true SOC)”

Meaning charge (NCA Panasonic) to 80% and let it drain to 35-55% before charging back up to 80% or keeping it between 55% (charger limit) and at 35% charge it back to 55%?
Charge to 50-55%.

The test is with small discharges, 10% but cycling within 55% to 35% seems to give the lowest cyclic degradation.

Cyclic degradation is small anyway, so calendar aging is the thing to be tactov with.
55% or below is better in that case as well.
 
I have seen too many charts and data since I got my 2023 MYLR . I digest them (as a scientist) but I am not sure what I believe anymore. Testla website says (1) U can charge anytime (2) Plug in all the time is OK (3) Up to 80% is OK (4) Charge up to 100% then drive right away to discharge
 
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I have seen too many charts and data since I got my 2023 MYLR . I digest them (as a scientist) but I am not sure what I believe anymore. Testla website says (1) U can charge anytime (2) Plug in all the time is OK (3) Up to 80% is OK (4) Charge up to 100% then drive right away to discharge
This isn’t in conflict with best practices, though; Tesla isn’t going to tell people to treat their car with kid gloves and go through the steps some owners are willing to for optimum longevity.

These findings are interesting to me but I won’t force myself or my wife to inconvenience ourselves, either.
 
I have seen too many charts and data since I got my 2023 MYLR . I digest them (as a scientist) but I am not sure what I believe anymore. Testla website says (1) U can charge anytime (2) Plug in all the time is OK (3) Up to 80% is OK (4) Charge up to 100% then drive right away to discharge
Teslas advices are in line with the research.
One might need to understand that the advice Tesla gives not are made to absolute minimize degradation. They are there to keep the degradation at an acceptable rate.

For example, the recent change from 90 to 80% for daily has nothing to do with minimizing degradation.
Teslas goals with the recommendations most probably are these:
1) Minimize the number of battery warranty exchanges due to too degraded packs.
2) Give the users/owners the maximum window of available range and at the same time as few rules as possible and to reduce the need-to-know to a absolute minimum.

Your point (4) you might need to look up at Teslas site or the manual.
I would say that there is no such Tesla advice to drive asap after a 100% charge.
If you find it, post links and references here:

The reason why you will not find that advice is that the batteries do not age or degrade noticable faster at 100% than at 80 or 90%.
In very warm climates the rate is slightly higher but not anutyhing thst matters for long term degration (remember, >80% is for longer trips).
The ”charge to 100% and then drive asap” is kind of a myth.
(Still there is no reason to leave it at 100% unless you need to).

For the ”too many charts and data” which I read as a sceptism for the trustworthiness of the charts, this is how to think:

1) The battery will most probably hold up for your eight year warranty period anyway. If you need a warranty change it most certainly will not be degradation issues.
So you can use the few simple rules/advices from Tesla* and live happy everafter, if you do not care about the degradation. Just do it! (You do not even need to reed 2) and 3) below.)

2) If you on the other hand care about degradation, falling into the trap of the myths will cause you to have more degradation than the minimum.

3) The science /research is agreeing very very much about how lithium batteries degrade. There are litterally hundreds of research tests and reports showing very close results.
There are a very few (like 1% or less) where either the conlusions is wrong due to faulty assumptions or test setups hiding facts. In these “bad reports” the actual data fits to the other 99% good reports.

There are not a single report to find that show that 80-90% cause the lowest degradation. None, zip, zero.

*) It is very very common on these forums that people state the “Tesla advices” but these often are not the complete tesla advices. What anybody should do is to read the actual Tesla manual for the own vehicle.
 
Teslas advices are in line with the research.
One might need to understand that the advice Tesla gives not are made to absolute minimize degradation. They are there to keep the degradation at an acceptable rate.

For example, the recent change from 90 to 80% for daily has nothing to do with minimizing degradation.
Teslas goals with the recommendations most probably are these:
1) Minimize the number of battery warranty exchanges due to too degraded packs.
2) Give the users/owners the maximum window of available range and at the same time as few rules as possible and to reduce the need-to-know to a absolute minimum.

Your point (4) you might need to look up at Teslas site or the manual.
I would say that there is no such Tesla advice to drive asap after a 100% charge.
If you find it, post links and references here:


The reason why you will not find that advice is that the batteries do not age or degrade noticable faster at 100% than at 80 or 90%.
In very warm climates the rate is slightly higher but not anutyhing thst matters for long term degration (remember, >80% is for longer trips).
The ”charge to 100% and then drive asap” is kind of a myth.
(Still there is no reason to leave it at 100% unless you need to).

For the ”too many charts and data” which I read as a sceptism for the trustworthiness of the charts, this is how to think:

1) The battery will most probably hold up for your eight year warranty period anyway. If you need a warranty change it most certainly will not be degradation issues.
So you can use the few simple rules/advices from Tesla* and live happy everafter, if you do not care about the degradation. Just do it! (You do not even need to reed 2) and 3) below.)

2) If you on the other hand care about degradation, falling into the trap of the myths will cause you to have more degradation than the minimum.

3) The science /research is agreeing very very much about how lithium batteries degrade. There are litterally hundreds of research tests and reports showing very close results.
There are a very few (like 1% or less) where either the conlusions is wrong due to faulty assumptions or test setups hiding facts. In these “bad reports” the actual data fits to the other 99% good reports.

There are not a single report to find that show that 80-90% cause the lowest degradation. None, zip, zero.

*) It is very very common on these forums that people state the “Tesla advices” but these often are not the complete tesla advices. What anybody should do is to read the actual Tesla manual for the own vehicle.
I’m shocked ! You say the 100% charge and go is a myth ?...can you store a battery at 100% ?
I have to say, I love reading your posts😁....just when I think that I finally understand....AAKEE posts another hand grenade 🤣😂
 
The higher discharge current definitely hurts the low SoC cycling group likely by driving a larger voltage sag at the already low voltages.

Do we think the low SoC cycling of 25-0% would do substantially better than even the 55-35% if the discharge rate was instead C/2 or C/4?

@AAKEE Any thoughts on if the 25-0% cycling would do better than the rest if the discharge rate was C/2 or C/4?

I typically charge to 50% and arrive home at 20%. Perhaps for my case, it may be better to charge to 60% and arrive home at 30%? Those low SOC curves are on a totally different slope and seem best to avoid? Even 65-55% did better than 35-25%. Noting I am in Vegas so always look for lowest SoC, right or wrong.

This report really hurt my brain for the low SOC cycling and the FCE. Maybe you can try again on thoughts why we should or shouldnt worry around that low range? I know you gave some already in initial post about unrealistic mileage/FCE but still digesting.
 
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I’m shocked ! You say the 100% charge and go is a myth ?...can you store a battery at 100% ?
I have to say, I love reading your posts😁....just when I think that I finally understand....AAKEE posts another hand grenade 🤣😂
I guess you did get the message? :)

=If you need to drive asap at 100%, then you need to drive asap at 80% as well.

The myth is that 80-90% is the best SOC for longevity and that if charging to 100% you need to drive ASAP.
 
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@AAKEE Any thoughts on if the 25-0% cycling would do better than the rest if the discharge rate was C/2 or C/4?
It probably will be much better than it looks in this report with 1C.

Other cycling tests with NCA show that the absolute lowest SOC range below 3.2V/cell, so about 0-5% or 0-10% displayed SOC cause slightly more degradation than stopping the discharge at 3.2V

So 50% to about 5-10% causes slightly less degradation than 50% to 0% real SOC, when the car stops.
Compare 3.7 to 3.2V with 3.7 to 2.5V
IMG_5188.png


For my own M3P I had for 2.5 years, I often was on the very low SOC range. 66K km is not very much but if the low SOC had hurt much it probably would have started to be seen as higher degradation by then.

Down to 0% is most probably very safe but trying to charge to 20% only and use the probably will not reduce the cyclic aging compated to charging to 50 or 55%.
Still, doing 20-0% will reduve the degradation compared to the “usual” 80% that people use.

I typically charge to 50% and arrive home at 20%. Perhaps for my case, it may be better to charge at 60% and arrive home at 30%? Those low SOC curves are on a totally different slope and seem best to avoid? Even 65-55% did better than 35-25%. Noting I am in Vegas.

Don’t overthink it.
(65-55% is roughly the same as 35-25%.)

I posted this research result because it shows a bit “worse” cyclic aging at the lowest SOC than what I usually state. To be open with that this data is available now.
Its the first partial cycling ranges with real model 3 cells.

If you like to reduce degradation, cycles is not what you should look at in the first place.

At 25C, we are looking at about 8% degradation (calendar aging) after the first two years and and about 11% after four years.

During these four years you need to drive some 500-1000 cycles (like 2-400K km or 125-250K miles to get the same amount of cyclic degradation. Thats about 35-60K each year for four years.

So if you would like to reduce the degradation you set the usage up to minimize calendar aging mainly, this will also set you up for low cyclic degradation as well.
This report really hurt my brain for the low SOC cycling and the FCE. Maybe you can try again on thoughts why we should or shouldnt worry around that low range? I know you gave some already in initial post about unrealistic mileage/FCE but still digesting.
 
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It's Up To Us what to believe in
Just like (hate to bring it up) vaccinated Covid19 or not. Our live our choice.

 
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It's Up To Us what to believe in
Just like (hate to bring it up) vaccinated Covid19 or not. Our live our choice.

For Covid vaccinations I listen to the wife...for Tesla battery care I listen to AAKEE....it just makes my life easier
 
It's Up To Us what to believe in
Just like (hate to bring it up) vaccinated Covid19 or not. Our live our choice.

Lithium battery research has been pretty consistent. The heat generated from DC charging 80-10% degrades batteries so almost all EVs throttle kW rates to prevent heat. Discharging at high C at low SoC is the same problem... that generates heat and degrades the batteries.

Charging to 100% and leave it there for extended periods of time... also known to be an issue with lithium batteries and they form gases in pouch cells and dendrites.

@AAKEE 's numbers are good.

I argue that 78 kW isn't a peak draw as I've seen spikes of 120-150 kW very briefly with my Model Ys and thus 2C brief draws are possible and would cause some voltage sag and damage at very low SoC.
 
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It's Up To Us what to believe in
Just like (hate to bring it up) vaccinated Covid19 or not. Our live our choice.

I did re-read that thread. I didnt se any real fact on that.

I’ve already done perhaps 50 posts about this but, well, here it is again:

Batteries degrade from calendar aging and cyclic aging.

Cyclic aging wise, reducing the charge level from the highest 100-90-80% reduce the cyclic aging:
IMG_0138.png

Reducing from 100% (4.2V) to 80% (4.0V) about roughly doubles the cyclic life.

These cells was cycled down to 0% true SOC.
For 100% to 0%, the could do about 650 cycles or 650 x 400 km so about 260K km
80-0% could do about 1000cycles so rougly 400K km.
Probably enough anyway for most people.

But the batteries wear from calendar aging as well, and it is the total degradation that set the limit when the battery dies, so calendar + cyclic aging is what need to be low enough.

This is a good sum of how batteries age from calendar aging, i.e all other effects except cycles. There is a lot of resesrch on this and to sum many reports, this is good:
IMG_4903.jpeg


We can see that from ~60-65% to 100% the calendar aging is about the same for normal temperatures.
Even at 50C , the rate is only slightly higher at 100% than at 80%.
The rate in real terms is about 10-15% higher at 100% than at 80%.
So leaving the car at 100% for 10 hours equals about leaving it at 80% for 11-12 hours.
(This is not a one-of-a-kind graph, butvthe sum of very many research reports).

We can find several examples showing that 80% SOC sometimes even causes more degradation (calendar aging) than 100%.
Many research tests/ graphs actually shows small signs of this, just to emphasize that 100% is not very bad but we can leave that thing for now.

Tesla want us to stay below 80%, was 90% for daily use (to reduce cyclic and calendar aging) but we can use 100% whenever needed. As far as I have seen Tesla never so far told us to drive asap after a 100% charge.
The car urge us to reduce the charging level after a couple of full charges but it wont tell us to drive asap.
This all makes sence from a science perspective.
 
What's the longest equivalent cycling/months data available in these research papers?
I think recommending charging to 50-560% based on a few years worth of data is kinda incomplete.
If 'saving' the battery in the first 8 years means you end-up with 71-75%% capacity, an honest recommendation for a consumer would be to ride the battery hard so that one could get a replacement under warranty.
 
What's the longest equivalent cycling/months data available in these research papers?
I think recommending charging to 50-560% based on a few years worth of data is kinda incomplete.
If 'saving' the battery in the first 8 years means you end-up with 71-75%% capacity, an honest recommendation for a consumer would be to ride the battery hard so that one could get a replacement under warranty.
Thought of that too but the feedback is the battery replacement could be refurbished unit to only guarantee 70% by Year 8 of ownership.

If it was a brand new battery replacement, different story. Honestly, not sure how Tesla replacement battery operations work.
 
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What's the longest equivalent cycling/months data available in these research papers?
I think recommending charging to 50-560% based on a few years worth of data is kinda incomplete.
If 'saving' the battery in the first 8 years means you end-up with 71-75%% capacity, an honest recommendation for a consumer would be to ride the battery hard so that one could get a replacement under warranty.
No, you missed a few points.

The warranty warrants you a battery that holds 70% adter eight years.
Tesla mostly gice you a battery that has the same capacity (range) as before it broke.

Driving it down to 69% means you’d get a battery pack that will hold up to 70% untill the warranty expires. So, then youre stuck with a 75% ish battery.
Besodes that, you probably can not abuse it to go below 70% in a few years.

The cycles test is not incomplete.
You can see the data covering up to 3000 Full Equivalent Cycles (FCE).
Thats 30.000 single 10% cycles as in the test.
3000 FCE takes you about 3000x400km, thats 1.200.000km or 750K miles.

IRL, if you do about 20K miles each year, om that data that is about 80 FCE each year. Then it takes about ten years to reach 800FCE, which would degrade the battery about 6% (the middle 10% graph), so about 0.6% degradation each year.

But during these ten years calendar aging probably degraded the battery 15-20% or so if using the most common charging target.