SpaceX Announcement 1pm PST Feb 27

[ecarfan]

I'll definitely feel more comfortable if they send some non-humans first, just to verify everything is hunky dory.

As always, I hate to bring this topic up, but do they have the pee and poo thing figured out?

No need to send non-humans into space to make sure humans will be safe. The primary reason animals were launched into space in the 50's was just to see if living organisms could survive. We are long past that point. See Animals in space - Wikipedia

Urinating and defecating in space was solved many decades ago. Unclear why you "hate" to raise that topic. You know, we all do it.

 

[Skotty]

No need to send non-humans into space to make sure humans will be safe. The primary reason animals were launched into space in the 50's was just to see if living organisms could survive. We are long past that point. See Animals in space - Wikipedia

Urinating and defecating in space was solved many decades ago. Unclear why you "hate" to raise that topic. You know, we all do it.

I don't necessarily mean sending animals. I just wasn't ruling it out either. Maybe just an empty Dragon V2, or maybe with added sensors, possibly something to simulate human weight, heat production and respiration.

As for bathroom needs, think they will have a space toilet like on the ISS? Kind of strange to think of a toilet in Dragon V2, but would probably preferable to other options, especially for commercial customers.

 

[Grendal]

I don't necessarily mean sending animals. I just wasn't ruling it out either. Maybe just an empty Dragon V2, or maybe with added sensors, possibly something to simulate human weight, heat production and respiration.

As for bathroom needs, think they will have a space toilet like on the ISS? Kind of strange to think of a toilet in Dragon V2, but would probably preferable to other options, especially for commercial customers.

That may be exactly what happens. The first FH test flight in April-May-ish has no official payload. It has been speculated that SpaceX might just send a Dragon around the Moon for a test run.

 

[macpacheco]

I don't necessarily mean sending animals. I just wasn't ruling it out either. Maybe just an empty Dragon V2, or maybe with added sensors, possibly something to simulate human weight, heat production and respiration.

As for bathroom needs, think they will have a space toilet like on the ISS? Kind of strange to think of a toilet in Dragon V2, but would probably preferable to other options, especially for commercial customers.

Sending 2 people up in a Dragon V2 capable of handling 7 people means there will be no shortage of life support capability.
SpaceX will first do the unmanned orbital Dragon V2 mission before this around the moon mission.
We're in 2017. We can simulate almost everything that happens inside Dragon to very high detail.
Some things can be tested in the real world without risking sending people to orbit.
Want to test life support ? Put Dragon V2 with enough people inside a vacuum simulator and let it do its thing for the whole mission duration.
Want to test its course corrections capabilities ? That will be tested on the unmanned Dragon V2 test flight (which is scheduled to take place late 2017).
SpaceX knows their stuff.
Assuming the unmanned Dragon V2 flight takes place without issue, I'm left with two concerns about this around the moon flight... Any Falcon 9/FH unknown issue. SpaceX intends to do about another 20 F9 launches and maybe 3 FH launches until then. That certainly helps. And the re-entry profile (much faster than LEO orbital velocities), but the re-entry is much easier to simulate, and Dragon V2 reportedly can handle return even from Mars (which is even hotter/faster than from the Moon).

Lets be rational. If you're not an engineer/scientist, let the pros do their job.
It took NASA dozens of flights from the first John Glenn suborbital flight all the way to the moon landing cause the biggest computer they had back in the late 60s/early 70s was less capable than a basic android cell phone is today.

Take for instance the new SpaceX Raptor engine. The full engine is already on the test stand. They got through the whole component testing without a single explosion and the engine has been test fired a few times, without blowing to bits and pieces. This is mostly due to ultra advanced computer simulations done throughout engine design cycles.

Its too easy to do monday morning quarterbacking... Trusting the engineering is hard.
Lets remember that:
the CRS mission failure was the result of 3rd party faulty components. Not a design problem.
the AMOS static fire explosion was a consequence of SpaceX pushing the boundary of space flight. The sort of problem nobody even considered cause nobody was using deep cryo LOX/Helium.
At the same time, the Dragon capsule family has a pretty good history. Except for a few in flight hickups which were all dealt with backups, resets or software corrections uploaded within hours, Dragon has delivered every time.

Wanting SpaceX to send an empty Dragon V2 in the same mission profile is the opinion of those that don't respect the very hard work SpaceX has done. And little respect for aerospace engineering in general. Even sending a dummy mission ahead of time can't retire 100% of risks. Space includes loss of life risks. Those that signed up obviously understand that.

 

[Skotty]

Wanting SpaceX to send an empty Dragon V2 in the same mission profile is the opinion of those that don't respect the very hard work SpaceX has done. And little respect for aerospace engineering in general. Even sending a dummy mission ahead of time can't retire 100% of risks. Space includes loss of life risks. Those that signed up obviously understand that.

You are jumping to unfounded conclusions here. There is zero lack of respect. Just an off the cuff discussion on the level of testing that would be worth doing prior to the real mission. SpaceX has had a couple of landing attempts end in explosions early on, and those probably worked fine in simulation. SpaceX is bound to be more careful with the moon mission since real lives are at stake. It's just a question of how careful, and whether that includes an unmanned demonstration mission. If they don't think that will be needed, I'm not about to claim otherwise. If you look at my prior post, I was just saying it would appeal to my desire to see everything is "hunky dory", a phrasing I wouldn't use if I was seriously questioning their judgement.

The rest of your post was reasonable and appreciated.

 

[GoTslaGo]

I am assuming with today's technology, space tourists should be able to navigate this without too much difficulty?

Six Minutes of Suspense: How Apollo 11 Made It Around the Moon - NBC News

Would they have a flight crew to assist, just in case?

 

[NCC-1701-T]

I am assuming with today's technology, space tourists should be able to navigate this without too much difficulty?

Six Minutes of Suspense: How Apollo 11 Made It Around the Moon - NBC News

Would they have a flight crew to assist, just in case?

That's my question. Would there be professional flight crew personnel on board as well. I would assume at least 1-2 crew-members would be professional astronauts on the SpaceX payroll.

 

[sandpiper]

I am assuming with today's technology, space tourists should be able to navigate this without too much difficulty?

Six Minutes of Suspense: How Apollo 11 Made It Around the Moon - NBC News

Would they have a flight crew to assist, just in case?

Yeah... I'm just not seeing that there is much issue here. It's routine to navigate probes into orbit around the outer planets from a control room on earth. And people have been in an orbiting space station for decades. I'm pretty darned sure that it's possible to ground-based navigate a few loops around the moon.

There still some (likely small) risks are all around the durability of the hardware. What happens if you have an Apollo 13 scenario? I think the answer may be... you're screwed. And if somebody is okay with that risk, then who are we to argue?

 

[ecarfan]

The first FH test flight in April-May-ish has no official payload. It has been speculated that SpaceX might just send a Dragon around the Moon for a test run.

That would be cool.

Just an off the cuff discussion on the level of testing that would be worth doing prior to the real mission.

Very off-the-cuff... ;-)

I'm pretty darned sure that it's possible to ground-based navigate a few loops around the moon

A cislunar free return trajectory does not involve any lunar orbits. See Free return trajectory - Wikipedia

I'm not a rocket scientist, but I would guess that the mission in question would be controlled from Earth and the crew would not be required to do much.

 

[Nikxice]

I am assuming with today's technology, space tourists should be able to navigate this without too much difficulty?

Would they have a flight crew to assist, just in case?

I was wondering the same thing. After the Monday SpaceX announcement I searched around and couldn't find any information that would rule out SpaceX adding a couple of NASA pilot astronauts to this mission. It seems highly likely. Although the mission could be totally automated, experienced human redundancy could help mitigate some of the risks. Who knows? Perhaps it's already in the works. Could also be that it won't be decided until NASA's finishes their own feasibility study for a SLS launched circumlunar flight next year. Either way, there would be no shortage of volunteers. Some NASA astronauts might be struggling with a decision as to what they want to train for and fly on, Orion or Dragon 2. They might be asking themselves, over the next decade which of those two spacecraft is most likely to succeed?

Apollo era astronauts knew that there weren't enough available seats for all of the moon missions. A few looked at their long odds and thought it best to "move up" and train for the future Skylab missions. I got a kick out of Apollo 12's Pete Conrad and his take on Skylab. Always the jokester, he enjoyed calling the program "Tomorrowland". A cool guy, he was able to rescue his LM pilot Al Bean from Tomorrowland. Eventually both still got to command their own Skylab missions.

 

[Skotty]

I was wondering the same thing. After the Monday SpaceX announcement I searched around and couldn't find any information that would rule out SpaceX adding a couple of NASA pilot astronauts to this mission. It seems highly likely. Although the mission could be totally automated, experienced human redundancy could help mitigate some of the risks. Who knows? Perhaps it's already in the works. Could also be that it won't be decided until NASA's finishes their own feasibility study for a SLS launched circumlunar flight next year. Either way, there would be no shortage of volunteers. Some NASA astronauts might be struggling with a decision as to what they want to train for and fly on, Orion or Dragon 2. They might be asking themselves, over the next decade which of those two spacecraft is most likely to succeed?

Apollo era astronauts knew that there weren't enough available seats for all of the moon missions. A few looked at their long odds and thought it best to "move up" and train for the future Skylab missions. I got a kick out of Apollo 12's Pete Conrad and his take on Skylab. Always the jokester, he enjoyed calling the program "Tomorrowland". A cool guy, he was able to rescue his LM pilot Al Bean from Tomorrowland. Eventually both still got to command their own Skylab missions.

Just a thought, whatever couple of folks are going up there might be hoping to go up there alone, if you know what I mean. It's a thought that is both delightful and repulsive at the same time. I know I'm not the first to think that.

 

[sandpiper]

That would be cool.

Very off-the-cuff... ;-)

A cislunar free return trajectory does not involve any lunar orbits. See Free return trajectory - Wikipedia

I'm not a rocket scientist, but I would guess that the mission in question would be controlled from Earth and the crew would not be required to do much.

From Space.com. I can't attest to their accuracy. Of course, likely nobody knows what they'll do.

Loop around the moon

During the circumlunar mission, SpaceX's Dragon capsule will make one big, long loop around the moon that will take the passengers into deep space. Musk suggested that the capsule will then orbit the moon like the Apollo 8 astronauts did, but he didn't specify the number of orbits. Apollo 8 entered lunar orbit on Dec. 24, 1968, and traveled around the moon 10 times before beginning the journey back to Earth about 20 hours later.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Just a thought, whatever couple of folks are going up there might be hoping to go up there alone, if you know what I mean. It's a thought that is both delightful and repulsive at the same time. I know I'm not the first to think that.

Obligatory reference:

xkcd: GeoIP

 

[Nikxice]

Just a thought, whatever couple of folks are going up there might be hoping to go up there alone, if you know what I mean. It's a thought that is both delightful and repulsive at the same time. I know I'm not the first to think that.

Yep, if SpaceX deems the mission safe enough for a couple of private paying civilians, guess that's that! However the public's perception, might not be so forgiving. Oh, how we love our "real astronauts"! An automated 2 person rich pitch to the moon might come across just wee bit like spam in a can. Circa HAM the chimp in 1961. Should be interesting to see how the plan unfolds.

From Space.com. I can't attest to their accuracy. Of course, likely nobody knows what they'll do.

I hadn't seen that information concerning an entry into lunar orbit. It looks to be behind a locked paywall on both Space.com and Spaceflight.com. It would require at least two extra rocket burns, one for lunar orbit insertion and another for trans-earth injection. If true, this mission is more complex than I originally understood.

 

[ecarfan]

I think space.com likely misunderstood Musk about the mission going into orbit around the moon. Model likely it will do a classic cislunar free return trajectory which does not require the additional burns as noted by @Nikxice .

 

[NCC-1701-T]

It will be interesting to see how Blue Origin and the New Glenn fit in with all of this.

 

[Grendal]

It will be interesting to see how Blue Origin and the New Glenn fit in with all of this.

Not at all, considering the New Glenn will not even be built until 2020 or later. Their first customer, Eutelsat, has a tentative launch date of 2021. The trip around the moon with SpaceX is shooting for 2018 and might slip into 2019. However, once New Glenn is built, tested, and flown then I can easily see Bezos getting it "human rated" since he is into commercialization of space. New Shepard is all about getting humans into suborbital space so I expect that New Glenn will do the same at the earliest opportunity. BO will need to build a human rated space ship or space capsule sometime to make such a thing work though. I'd expect more of a space ship over a capsule for BO. Something a little more showy over practical when they get to it.

I have to say that I am so happy to see what is happening. I've been waiting for something like this for decades. SpaceX and BO are both turning the old school launch business on its head. I want to see them both succeed since the two CEOs seem to have different, though similar in ways, agendas.

 

[evp]

Uhhh... you'd need to be in a MUCH more refined group than the 1%. To be able to drop $100M on something like this, you're looking at people with net worth of at least a billion - but more likely $5 billion. There are a couple-ish thousand billionaires on the planet, so you're dealing the the 0.00003%

... and at least four of them are actively building their own spacecraft: Musk, Bigelow, Bezos, Branson. John Carmack's experience with Armadillo Aerospace seems to demonstrate that if you don't have at least a Billion, financing a rocketship is not for you.

 

[BluestarE3]

Uhhh... you'd need to be in a MUCH more refined group than the 1%. To be able to drop $100M on something like this, you're looking at people with net worth of at least a billion - but more likely $5 billion. There are a couple-ish thousand billionaires on the planet, so you're dealing the the 0.00003%

I heard that Jia Yueting is vying for one of the slots... however, if he stiffs SpaceX (as he had with other contractors and vendors), his capsule will not make the loop-around back to Earth; instead, it will be left to orbit the Moon until he comes up with the money.

 

[NCC-1701-T]

Not at all, considering the New Glenn will not even be built until 2020 or later. Their first customer, Eutelsat, has a tentative launch date of 2021. The trip around the moon with SpaceX is shooting for 2018 and might slip into 2019. However, once New Glenn is built, tested, and flown then I can easily see Bezos getting it "human rated" since he is into commercialization of space. New Shepard is all about getting humans into suborbital space so I expect that New Glenn will do the same at the earliest opportunity. BO will need to build a human rated space ship or space capsule sometime to make such a thing work though. I'd expect more of a space ship over a capsule for BO. Something a little more showy over practical when they get to it.

I have to say that I am so happy to see what is happening. I've been waiting for something like this for decades. SpaceX and BO are both turning the old school launch business on its head. I want to see them both succeed since the two CEOs seem to have different, though similar in ways, agendas.

I love BO's sub-orbit approach to space tourism. Going up in New Shepard's capsule would be the thrill of a lifetime for anybody who hasn't actually been in space. If launches can be a regular thing and revenue being drummed up quickly from tourist flights, then that can put BO ahead of the curve in a few departments. I agree that SpaceX is much much farther ahead when it comes to actual space travel. I too am beyond excited for what's happening right now. All these non-governmental players being involved in space travel is utterly fantastic.