Stalk or no stalk argument [not] settled

First, we should analyze the matter without considering that the brand Tesla is making these changes and understand from a automotive/ engineering/ ergonomic point of view that whether indicator in steering has benefits compare to stalk. If it does, I'll accept that.

Obviously there is always a trade off in anything.

Having stalk as an independent module that it's functionality is not influenced by the functionality of another module (steering). Ergonomically, we apply force by our arms to move the steering, and we operate the stalk by our fingers (not thumb). This configuration only make sense if the steering is round. So stalks works with a round steering.

The no stalk configuration is ergonomically acceptable if there is a yoke. And only if the yoke doesn't need to turn not more halfway. In this case your thumbs are always where they suppose to be to function.

Another issue is the gear Selector.

First, I don't know what how you would select gear if you break your screen. Second, if you have a yoke configuration, the intent is to keep you hands on the yoke all the time. But that conflicts with selecting gear because to select gear you have to take you hand off the yoke and touch the screen.

Another issue is that selecting gear on screen mandates eye engagement (but not the stalk) which again defeats the purpose of buttons in yoke.

So the no stalk configuration only makes sense if the gear Selector is also on the yoke and the yoke only turns halfway.

 

[whitex]

If we think about the shifting stalk, in the old days,
we had buttons, there were 3 speed stalks (what a piece of work)
and I think the center console is the most common now.
I still reach for the center console from time to time,
its not a big deal.

The turn signal buttons on the wheel will not be
a big thing in Germany cause most people do not
use them or use them incorrectly. It may be an advantage
traveling at high speeds (100mph).

If you look at a F1 race car, its all on the wheel.
I guess in a few hours of driving, it will all work out.
Deal buster, hardly.
Never mind.

There are definitely people who drive their cars in a way they would ride a cow - they get on, they point it in the general direction, and they hope they get there. I see these people driving in Washington state, getting on a highway doing 10mph under speed limit, barreling across all lanes of traffic into the left most express lanes while cutting off everyone and without using any directional indicators, then continuing to drive under the speed limit except for downhill, where others are allowed to pass them, there they actually speed up to as much as 20mph over the speed limit (cow running downhill syndrome?). For those people, either stalks or touch controls are useless, they never, ever , use them. Then again, apparently a speedometer is useless to those people too.

 

[Candleflame]

theres a few more issues, with the stalk model 3/s you can quickly move forward and reverse (similar to flicking a manual between R and 1 while still going in the other direction).
such manouvers are quite common in europe with ultratight parking spaces and parallel parking.

I dont think turn signals on the wheel are a problem, other car manufacturers have done it too - the issue is that L/R indicator are both on the same site when they should be on opposite sites and a bit away from the other buttons

 

[one2many]

theres a few more issues, with the stalk model 3/s you can quickly move forward and reverse (similar to flicking a manual between R and 1 while still going in the other direction).
such manouvers are quite common in europe with ultratight parking spaces and parallel parking.

Yep the parking here really takes an expert. I not sure fast shifting is better but say it is.
How did we ever survive the manual trany where you had to pull up or push down for
reverse? My partner said I did not need a performance 3, so what getting to the
beer store a second or two later really matters, I said it maters to me so we got the AWD LR,
no P in my world.

 

[Candleflame]

Yep the parking here really takes an expert. I not sure fast shifting is better but say it is.
How did we ever survive the manual trany where you had to pull up or push down for
reverse? My partner said I did not need a performance 3, so what getting to the
beer store a second or two later really matters, I said it maters to me so we got the AWD LR,
no P in my world.

tbh the performance isnt that much faster during daily driving in germany which is less dominated by low speed sprints and more by higher speed driving. So its only the ego which is hurt and the wallet preserved hehe.

 

[KJD]

Second, you pretty much only change gears when stationary, so issues of looking at screen seem moot to me. And i tend to glance at screen anyway. Also the current mix of half-way, full/way and double ups and downs in the stalk are hardly intuitive.

Think about a parking garage where the stalls and the lanes are smaller than they should be and you have large oversize vehicles not really in the stalls properly. Ever done a three point turn or 5 point turn to get into or out of these places. It will be aggravating and more time consuming than normal.

The stalkless design adds nothing to the car. Change just for the sake of change is silly and wrong.

 

[FLRifleman]

You can do like this guy and manually add a stalk.

Work in progress: stalks on 2021 Model S. (and optional round-y wheel)

@rhuber - could you please share the wiring on how to read out the analog signal from the stalk. Managed to get the turn signal voltage but not able to figure out the wiper/wash and high-beam one. All I need is to share how to send / receive the voltages from which pins, rest should be able to...

teslamotorsclub.com

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Or you can just buy a car with a stalk. There is a danger in not designing the vehicle around the driver. You annoy the person who would be buying the car. I'm generally a fan of Tesla. However, this and similar ergonomic & functional deletes to cut costs, will likely drive me to another automaker when the next time to buy comes along.

 

[zoomer0056]

Change just for the sake of change is silly and wrong.

People are silly. Any change is new. People want new refreshed things.

 

[one2many]

Or you can just buy a car with a stalk. There is a danger in not designing the vehicle around the driver. You annoy the person who would be buying the car. I'm generally a fan of Tesla. However, this and similar ergonomic & functional deletes to cut costs, will likely drive me to another automaker when the next time to buy comes along.

It would be interesting which stalk you are talking about. I have not seen a shifter stalk
in many, many years. At least we dont have the round button, spin. push.
I wonder if anyone on this 5 page thread has really driven one.

That doent matter. Any change is new. People want new things.

 

[KJD]

That doent matter. Any change is new. People want new things.

Wrong. People want new things that work better than old things. The stalkless design fails this test.

It is amazing how many people here will make excuses for a bad design.

 

[one2many]

It is amazing how many people here will make excuses for a bad design.

Have you driven one yet ?

 

[zoomer0056]

Wrong. People want new things that work better than old things. The stalkless design fails this test.

It is amazing how many people here will make excuses for a bad design.

Definitely polarizing.

 

[KJD]

Have you driven one yet ?

Yes I have driven the model S without stalks. It sucks.

 

[LiamPope]

If you look at a F1 race car, its all on the wheel.
I guess in a few hours of driving, it will all work out.
Deal buster, hardly.
Never mind.

An F1 car steering wheel rarely needs to turn more than 90 degrees and the driver can keep his hands in the same place at all times. That's why steering wheel button driving controls are OK on an F1 car, or a road car with drive by wire yoke like Lexus. Not so OK on a car with 2+ full turns lock to lock where your hands can't stay in the same place hovering over buttons.


So, topic recap - I've seen reasonable arguments that the button and screen controls are indeed possible to operate, that we'll get used to it if we have to, that it isn't dangerous, Let's be honest folks - that's a pretty low bar! If the best the Elon fanboys can argue is 'it's not impossible to use!', 'it might not be dangerous!', 'you'll get used to it!', that speaks volumes! I don't think I've seen anyone even try to argue this is actually a good innovation, that it's even on par with stalks for ease of use, let alone actually an improvement! That says all I need to hear - this is dumb!

 

[stopcrazypp]

An F1 car steering wheel rarely needs to turn more than 90 degrees and the driver can keep his hands in the same place at all times. That's why steering wheel button driving controls are OK on an F1 car, or a road car with drive by wire yoke like Lexus. Not so OK on a car with 2+ full turns lock to lock where your hands can't stay in the same place hovering over buttons.


So, topic recap - I've seen reasonable arguments that the button and screen controls are indeed possible to operate, that we'll get used to it if we have to, that it isn't dangerous, Let's be honest folks - that's a pretty low bar! If the best the Elon fanboys can argue is 'it's not impossible to use!', 'it might not be dangerous!', 'you'll get used to it!', that speaks volumes! I don't think I've seen anyone even try to argue this is actually a good innovation, that it's even on par with stalks for ease of use, let alone actually an improvement! That says all I need to hear - this is dumb!

If you have a yoke like the Lexus which you never have to turn more than 90 degrees (which was likely the original vision), I can see actually ergonomically it's a better design than a stalk (for same reasons F1 car or a Ferrari has buttons there). It's just that Elon pushed out the yoke idea before they developed a drive by wire system that can take advantage of it, so they had to walk that back.

 

[EfficientWatts]

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/tesla-semi-interior-review/?galleryimageid=726a3725-a743-4343-94d1-858c62ff71c8&test=treatment

I recalled the semi having stalks, and it does. It does looks similar to the S/X/Highland 3 steering wheel.

So if they have to backtrack, they have a base design to go off of already (adjusted for regular car use of course).

If they do backtrack, it will be pretty swift (after inventory buildup). Question is whether they'll try to keep both or only do one, but I would think they would only pick one due to scale and build complexity, though I could see Elon being stubborn about it and forcing Tesla to offer both.

It's going to take a few quarters of sales hit or issues before we could see any reversal (unless there's a huge drop right off the bat) if we do though.

I could also see them compromising and adding back 1 stalk (turn) only. I think that is the bigger issue of the two.

Hopefully we can maybe see some 3rd party options (I could see some companies in China cooking up a stalk accessory right now).

 

[Loki13]

I have a yoke steering wheel on my car with stalks and I find it easier to use than with a round wheel. I don’t think I would mind capacitive buttons. It just takes some getting used to, but I would be lying if I said I wouldn’t miss the stalks.

 

[tlr1000]

This is the true test:

 

[Ottmeister]

Auxiliary stalks are already popping up in the accessories market place.
And, that is how the car comes - if you do no like it, do not buy. Tell Teslas. Long arguments are useless.
They brought the round wheel option back on X/S due to complaints. The stalks I do not think will return even as an option.
There is a long history of car companies inflicting new technology onto consumers. I.e. BMW original iDrive - shitstorm - now so banal and parsimonious.

 

[brkaus]

And turn signals are active for less than 0.001% of driving time. Why do we even bother with those at all?

Well, except for Florida…

 

[Unclepaul]

People wanting stalks have two options.
1. Buy a Model 3 now. They all come with stalks.
2. Wait and buy a refreshed version and add aftermarket stalks.
Of course there is always another option. Buy a Model Y. or non-Tesla .

Tesla is all in on FSD. They want it so bad it drives them hard to perfect it. Getting rid of stalks is possibly premature as FSD has not advanced as quickly as hoped, but most owners will be able to figure out stalkless driving till then.

My X has a Yoke. Is relatively easy to drive, and I adapted to the controls pretty easily. It certainly opens up the interior and gives a full view of both center and drivers displays.