Stalk or no stalk argument [not] settled

First, we should analyze the matter without considering that the brand Tesla is making these changes and understand from a automotive/ engineering/ ergonomic point of view that whether indicator in steering has benefits compare to stalk. If it does, I'll accept that.

Obviously there is always a trade off in anything.

Having stalk as an independent module that it's functionality is not influenced by the functionality of another module (steering). Ergonomically, we apply force by our arms to move the steering, and we operate the stalk by our fingers (not thumb). This configuration only make sense if the steering is round. So stalks works with a round steering.

The no stalk configuration is ergonomically acceptable if there is a yoke. And only if the yoke doesn't need to turn not more halfway. In this case your thumbs are always where they suppose to be to function.

Another issue is the gear Selector.

First, I don't know what how you would select gear if you break your screen. Second, if you have a yoke configuration, the intent is to keep you hands on the yoke all the time. But that conflicts with selecting gear because to select gear you have to take you hand off the yoke and touch the screen.

Another issue is that selecting gear on screen mandates eye engagement (but not the stalk) which again defeats the purpose of buttons in yoke.

So the no stalk configuration only makes sense if the gear Selector is also on the yoke and the yoke only turns halfway.

 

[mborkow]

Interesting, all 3/Y's I've ever driven, the stalk never stays all the way in left signal or right signal position - always returns to the center position, even if the blinker is on permanently.

Ah, I see what you mean. Yes, the stalk doesn’t remain in the depressed mechanical position. It returns to center even though the blinkers continue until again mechanically cancelled if the stalk was depressed completely.

 

[SVMike]

You’ve never been able to turn regen off. And adjusting regen hasn’t been a thing for a couple years.

I was replying to one-pedal driving.
Are you saying you cannot turn this off and on like I could in my 2018 M3 years ago?

 

[WyoDude]

I was replying to one-pedal driving.
Are you saying you cannot turn this off and on like I could in my 2018 M3 years ago?

You couldn’t turn it off in 2018 either unless you we’re using track mode. You could change between different levels of regen.

In recent years they took away the ability to select the level of regen as well.

 

[drtimhill]

I was replying to one-pedal driving.
Are you saying you cannot turn this off and on like I could in my 2018 M3 years ago?

yes, Tesls removed this because of the brain-dead way the US feds compute EV range. If the vehicle has more than one driving mode, they AVERAGE over all the modes to compute range (without taking into account relative usage of each mode), rather than use the most efficient mode (brilliant, eh?). So Tesla got rid of the various legacy modes that were less efficient to keep the EV range rational.

 

[whitex]

yes, Tesls removed this because of the brain-dead way the US feds compute EV range. If the vehicle has more than one driving mode, they AVERAGE over all the modes to compute range (without taking into account relative usage of each mode), rather than use the most efficient mode (brilliant, eh?). So Tesla got rid of the various legacy modes that were less efficient to keep the EV range rational.

So a 4x4 gas mileage includes "low 4-4, with locked differentials" mode gas usage in the average? Weighted equally by miles driven?

 

[stopcrazypp]

So a 4x4 gas mileage includes "low 4-4, with locked differentials" mode gas usage in the average? Weighted equally by miles driven?

I think it only applies to EV range calculations (for example there was a similar much older rule that applied to charge modes, which made the Leaf drop their 80% charge mode; Tesla was not affected because the charge limit was not discrete separate modes)

Edit: another example is the noisemaker rule, it only applied to EVs and hybrids. If you had an exceptionally quiet ICE car, you got away with it.

 

[drtimhill]

So a 4x4 gas mileage includes "low 4-4, with locked differentials" mode gas usage in the average? Weighted equally by miles driven?

No idea .. pretty sure this rule is for EVs only .. which is (as you post illustrates) pretty stupid also.

 

[drtimhill]

I think it only applies to EV range calculations (for example there was a similar much older rule that applied to charge modes, which made the Leaf drop their 80% charge mode; Tesla was not affected because the charge limit was not discrete separate modes)

Edit: another example is the noisemaker rule, it only applied to EVs and hybrids. If you had an exceptionally quiet ICE car, you got away with it.

Yeah a classic example of bad laws: "EVs are quiet, so they may cause trouble for pedestrians, therefore EVs need noisemakers" is false logic. The correct logic is "Therefore quiet cars need noisemakers". But our wonderful politicians only really know how to raise bribes campaign contributions, we cant expect them o be logical or fair as well, can we now?

 

[Timmo]

First, we should analyze the matter without considering that the brand Tesla is making these changes and understand from a automotive/ engineering/ ergonomic point of view that whether indicator in steering has benefits compare to stalk. If it does, I'll accept that.

Obviously there is always a trade off in anything.

Having stalk as an independent module that it's functionality is not influenced by the functionality of another module (steering). Ergonomically, we apply force by our arms to move the steering, and we operate the stalk by our fingers (not thumb). This configuration only make sense if the steering is round. So stalks works with a round steering.

The no stalk configuration is ergonomically acceptable if there is a yoke. And only if the yoke doesn't need to turn not more halfway. In this case your thumbs are always where they suppose to be to function.

Another issue is the gear Selector.

First, I don't know what how you would select gear if you break your screen. Second, if you have a yoke configuration, the intent is to keep you hands on the yoke all the time. But that conflicts with selecting gear because to select gear you have to take you hand off the yoke and touch the screen.

Another issue is that selecting gear on screen mandates eye engagement (but not the stalk) which again defeats the purpose of buttons in yoke.

So the no stalk configuration only makes sense if the gear Selector is also on the yoke and the yoke only turns halfway.View attachment 971357

For me: No stalk = 100% Dealbreaker.
This incredibly stupid design decision saves Tesla money by killing its customers.
For an example google "Chau Pond Death."
The problem will only get worse as more of these death traps hit the roads.
If Tesla does not fix this error I will abandon the brand.

 

[Knightshade]

For me: No stalk = 100% Dealbreaker.
This incredibly stupid design decision saves Tesla money by killing its customers.
For an example google "Chau Pond Death."
The problem will only get worse as more of these death traps hit the roads.
If Tesla does not fix this error I will abandon the brand.

There's no evidence stalks or lack of them had anything to do with the accident.

But alcohol might have- given the stories all report she'd been spending that evening before getting in the car celebrating with friends.

 

[Timmo]

There's no evidence stalks or lack of them had anything to do with the accident.

But alcohol might have- given the stories all report she'd been spending that evening before getting in the car celebrating with friends.

Do you see any irony with the fact that the press reported on her difficulties changing gears as she described to 3rd parties numerous times, which you call "no evidence" and then immediately make a completely unsupported insinuation that she was inebriated?
Congratulations - you just scored points with the Elon Fanboy Club!

 

[Videomatic3]

There's no evidence stalks or lack of them had anything to do with the accident.

Thank you for smoking

 

[John Latham]

Found this thread after testing a Highland 3. Have owned a 3 LR for four years.

I hate the lack of stalks, and it's a total dealbreaker. I'm used to using buttons on my motorbike, but motorbike steering has very limited lock.

Where I live it is the law to signal before exiting a roundabout, and this is awkward with buttons as the wheel is not straight. Also, multi point turns are incredibly awkward.

Unfortunately there is no other car that meets my needs as well as a Model 3, so I'm forced to wait until they reverse the decision.

Regarding the touchscreen phone argument, I don't drive a two tonne vehicle with my phone, and besides, my phone still has physical buttons for critical hands free features like volume controls and power. Physical keypads were dropped on phones because they're worse, not because of parts costs.

When I pointed out the stalk problem to the salesman his argument was that I have to remove a hand from the wheel to change gear in a manual car, so what's the problem? Um, ok.

Anyway, I'm pleased that the stalkless fans are enjoying their denuded cars, but I suspect they'd find ways to celebrate Tesla deleting the fourth wheel, such is their passion. Think of the tyre savings! Oh, to have a love as deep and unrequited.

 

[ks1972]

Found this thread after testing a Highland 3. Have owned a 3 LR for four years.

I hate the lack of stalks, and it's a total dealbreaker. I'm used to using buttons on my motorbike, but motorbike steering has very limited lock.

Where I live it is the law to signal before exiting a roundabout, and this is awkward with buttons as the wheel is not straight. Also, multi point turns are incredibly awkward.

Unfortunately there is no other car that meets my needs as well as a Model 3, so I'm forced to wait until they reverse the decision.

Regarding the touchscreen phone argument, I don't drive a two tonne vehicle with my phone, and besides, my phone still has physical buttons for critical hands free features like volume controls and power. Physical keypads were dropped on phones because they're worse, not because of parts costs.

When I pointed out the stalk problem to the salesman his argument was that I have to remove a hand from the wheel to change gear in a manual car, so what's the problem? Um, ok.

Anyway, I'm pleased that the stalkless fans are enjoying their denuded cars, but I suspect they'd find ways to celebrate Tesla deleting the fourth wheel, such is their passion. Think of the tyre savings! Oh, to have a love as deep and unrequited.

That’s the reason I bought a 23 M3P and refused to replace my S with another. Had a friend test drive an X recently, he ended up buying an Audi EV, lack of stalks was a major factor in his decision as well. Hopefully, after another crappy quarter, Tesla changes course and give customers more choices. I have bought 4 Teslas in 5 years, but, I don’t think I would want to buy another if they don’t change course

 

[drtimhill]

For me: No stalk = 100% Dealbreaker.
This incredibly stupid design decision saves Tesla money by killing its customers.
For an example google "Chau Pond Death."
The problem will only get worse as more of these death traps hit the roads.
If Tesla does not fix this error I will abandon the brand.

What car will you buy then? Almost none of them have traditional PRNDL transmission controls any more.

 

[Zythryn]

That’s the reason I bought a 23 M3P and refused to replace my S with another. Had a friend test drive an X recently, he ended up buying an Audi EV, lack of stalks was a major factor in his decision as well. Hopefully, after another crappy quarter, Tesla changes course and give customers more choices. I have bought 4 Teslas in 5 years, but, I don’t think I would want to buy another if they don’t change course

I understand this choice, I just hope those that don’t buy a Tesla as a result will let Tesla corporate know.

For me, I won’t be buying a car that uses stalks. I find the stalkless design in the Highland very useful and safer.
If I had a lot of roundabouts in my area that may not be the case anymore. But for now, I am quite happy with them.

 

[3sr+buyer]

Unfortunately there is no other car that meets my needs as well as a Model 3, so I'm forced to wait until they reverse the decision.

The maker of the S3XY buttons is claiming that aftermarket stalks are in development.

 

[3sr+buyer]

Almost none of them have traditional PRNDL transmission controls any more.

Seems like every company has its own take on automatic transmission controls... Probably most of then are ok after you get used to them, but a first timer in a rental car or a borrowed car may find them difficult to figure out, or may shift into the incorrect setting unintentionally. The Tesla stalk is similar to the Mercedes one shown below, presumably due to initially sourcing parts from Mercedes or its supplier for early Model S.

From When It Comes to Automatic Shifters, It's Proceed With Caution :

 

[drtimhill]

Seems like every company has its own take on automatic transmission controls... Probably most of then are ok after you get used to them, but a first timer in a rental car or a borrowed car may find them difficult to figure out, or may shift into the incorrect setting unintentionally. The Tesla stalk is similar to the Mercedes one shown below, presumably due to initially sourcing parts from Mercedes or its supplier for early Model S.

From When It Comes to Automatic Shifters, It's Proceed With Caution :

Indeed and as a frequent renter I can attest to them being annoying, but it's not hard to sit for a moment, figure it out, and then drive. While I can understand the issues some ppl have with turn signals, I'm not sure what the deal is with not having a stack selector.

 

[3sr+buyer]

Indeed and as a frequent renter I can attest to them being annoying, but it's not hard to sit for a moment, figure it out, and then drive. While I can understand the issues some ppl have with turn signals, I'm not sure what the deal is with not having a stack selector.

Probably the biggest question I would have with some of them is how the parking brake (distinct from putting the transmission in park) is activated. If a parking brake control is provided, I use it to turn on the parking brake when parking, even if the car may have some automatic parking brake activation (that is not necessarily obvious or the same on each car). But sometimes it is not obvious how to activate the parking brake, or what (if any) automatic activation is provided. In the Tesla Model 3, manually activating the parking brake is done by holding the park button down for a few seconds, which is not obvious without reading the manual (which also does not mention any automatic parking brake activation).