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That was a request for "temp authority" to test the birds, right? But, in a quick perusal, nothing in there about the time between launch and being oprational to perform the test, which is what I was talking about.

I'm not sure the FCC even regulates the time between achieving orbit and beginning operations. I suspect that's more a function of, orbital positioning, system checks, deploying solar arrays, deploying antennas, etc...
Dude, give me some credit...
Third paragraph:
SpaceX’s experiment will include several phases, including during the launch and early orbit phase
(“LEOP”)
and while at operational altitude. During the critical LEOP period, which will begin within hours of launch at an altitude between 290 km and 350 km—depending on the particulars of the specific launch—and may continue for several weeks or months, SpaceX will test the functionality of each direct- to-cellular payload and its network capabilities to ensure that they are operating as intended. Based on the outcome of these tests, SpaceX may thereafter begin the orbit-raising process to an intermediate parking orbit to conduct additional tests.
 
Dude, give me some credit...
Third paragraph:
SpaceX’s experiment will include several phases, including during the launch and early orbit phase
(“LEOP”)
and while at operational altitude. During the critical LEOP period, which will begin within hours of launch at an altitude between 290 km and 350 km—depending on the particulars of the specific launch—and may continue for several weeks or months, SpaceX will test the functionality of each direct- to-cellular payload and its network capabilities to ensure that they are operating as intended. Based on the outcome of these tests, SpaceX may thereafter begin the orbit-raising process to an intermediate parking orbit to conduct additional tests.
Certainly not trying to imply anything, apologies if it came accross this way.

What I'm questioning is: Does the FCC regulate the time between launch and operations?

Now certainly there are dates of operations that the FCC regulates. But if your window begins Mar 1st, do they care if you launch Jan 15th or Mar 25th?

That's what I was talking about when I said, "launch to sats being operational", and your reply implied seemed to indicate they asked the FCC to allow them a shorter launch to being ready to operate window....
 
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Certainly not trying to imply anything, apologies if it came accross this way.

What I'm questioning is: Does the FCC regulate the time between launch and operations?

Now certainly there are dates of operations that the FCC regulates. But if your window begins Mar 1st, do they care if you launch Jan 15th or Mar 25th?

That's what I was talking about when I said, "launch to sats being operational", and your reply implied seemed to indicate they asked the FCC to allow them a shorter launch to being ready to operate window....
😉 I only said "some" mainly because I had to scan a few search results to find it.

FCC cares about altitude and being in the approved orbit. That's where the satellite is licensed to radiate. The request was to allow operation and testing before reaching their approved orbit. That's why SpaceX was able to test so quickly after launch, as opposed to the satellites reaching final orbit faster.
 
😉 I only said "some" mainly because I had to scan a few search results to find it.

FCC cares about altitude and being in the approved orbit. That's where the satellite is licensed to radiate. The request was to allow operation and testing before reaching their approved orbit. That's why SpaceX was able to test so quickly after launch, as opposed to the satellites reaching final orbit faster.
Cool... and the lesser need to raise to orbit meshes with my comment in the initial post that "other long commissioning times have been due to needing to raise to a higher orbit.".. so while the FCC app may not have said anything about the launch-to-operational window, it did allow for opeeration at lower orbit.

OK, @Grendal , we'll stop bickering now... :)
 
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Cool... and the lesser need to raise to orbit meshes with my comment in the initial post that "other long commissioning times have been due to needing to raise to a higher orbit.".. so while the FCC app may not have said anything about the lainch-to-operational window, it did allow for opeeration at lower orbit.

OK, @Grendal , we'll stop bickering now... :)
I believe we are in violent agreement!
 
Is there any special subscription to use this service?

If you are in the US, It will be included in all the Magenta and "Go5G" Plans (what they replaced Magenta with). Basically if you don't go prepaid or grab the "essentials" plans you'll have access to the new features as part of your normal postpaid service plans.

There is a possibility of adding it on to lower plans as a surcharge but for sure it will be rolled into the higher cost plans as an included feature just like they toss in "Netflix Standard with ads ON US"

If you are in another country I'm not sure what billing choices the other providers will go with.
 
There is a possibility of adding it on to lower plans as a surcharge but for sure it will be rolled into the higher cost plans as an included feature just like they toss in "Netflix Standard with ads ON US"
I wonder if it will allow for free emergency services text messages the way we can dial 911 from any cell phone. If you're lost in the wilderness, being able to get a text out to emergency services in your area can save your life.
 
I wonder if it will allow for free emergency services text messages the way we can dial 911 from any cell phone. If you're lost in the wilderness, being able to get a text out to emergency services in your area can save your life.
That’s why I carry a Garmin InReach Mini when hiking away from frequently used trails. I of course also have my iPhone with me and if it could do that I would not need the Garmin. Although I now live in Canada I still pay for a T-Mobile SIM card so I could use that in my phone for emergency use but would have to upgrade my T-Mobile account. It would be worth it.
 
If you are in the US, It will be included in all the Magenta and "Go5G" Plans (what they replaced Magenta with).
Basically if you don't go prepaid or grab the "essentials" plans you'll have access to the new features as part of your normal postpaid service plans.

There is a possibility of adding it on to lower plans as a surcharge but for sure it will be rolled
into the higher cost plans as an included feature just like they toss in "Netflix Standard with ads ON US"

If you are in another country I'm not sure what billing choices the other providers will go with.

Thank you for the reply. I would certainly interested getting some temporary subscrition plans so when visit a National Park, cruising on a boat,
or going hiking... I will still be able to use my phone or access the Internet, something I often experienced (see my Tesla avatar display).
Otherwise I don't really think that I will use or need any satellite communication.
 
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- They went from launch to sats being operational in 8 days. That seems fast, although admittedly I don't track such things, and perhaps the other long commissioning times have been due to needing to raise to a higher orbit...

The platform commissioning is extremely fast (and automated). After thousands of sats, they've got it on lock. The payload commissioning was basically "let's turn it on and see if it works", and getting to the point of real traffic (rather than just some test tones or whatever) would be pretty fast.

Often experimental sats (as has been described with these sats) get permission to operate in non-final locations--and often at lower power levels--hence the lack of wait-for-orbit-raising time.

- LOL at the messages sent... right up there with test launches of blocks of cheese and cars to space

Those were the texts you saw. It's practically tradition in space to send a poo emoji. :p

- The press release talks about the extreme difficulty in getting the sat to work with an unmodified cell phone with 0.2W max(!), and custom silicon to help with stuff like doppler shift at sat speeds... very cool

To be fair, it's basically the same silicon set that's been on the Starlink broadband sats. No less impressive, but not really a new set of technology, other than switching for protocols and frequencies.

- Will be interesting to see a voice service test, and if these initial D2D pilot birds will be able to do that, or it will take an upgraded version

Voice is really hard--just look at Iridium and their highly advantaged device antennas. Beyond being a bigger consumer than something like a text, voice is also something you can't put in a queue like a text, which can get sent asymmetrically without much impact to user experience. Voice has to be prioritized traffic. While It's hard to imagine these sats not being able to carry a voice call in a clean test environment, it's equally hard to imagine these sats being able to carry voice calls in a production environment. I'd speculate that 911 calls will be the first and potentially only voice offered over these sats, and also that casual voice calls won't be a thing until larger sats (and thus, corollary smaller beams) are operational.

I wonder if it will allow for free emergency services text messages the way we can dial 911 from any cell phone. If you're lost in the wilderness, being able to get a text out to emergency services in your area can save your life.

It's hard to imagine T-mobile NOT enabling text-to-911 for all customers. That's not a comprehensive solution as some backwater places don't have text to 911 yet (that's why Apple set up their own intermediary stations for those areas), but its certainly way better than nothing.

I suspect it's possible for T-mobile to extend the good-will of free text to 911 to roaming users as well.

Thank you for the reply. I would certainly interested getting some temporary subscrition plans so when visit a National Park, cruising on a boat,
or going hiking... I will still be able to use my phone or access the Internet, something I often experienced (see my Tesla avatar display).
Otherwise I don't really think that I will use or need any satellite communication.

Horse beating here, but it's really important to temper expectations on overall experience. American National Parks, for instance, are BY FAR the densest concentration of unconnected mobile devices; that's where service is going to be at its worse. These current D2D starlinks are 7mbps or some such per beam, and that’s likely in a perfect environment where occlusions aren’t attenuating the link or driving re-tries and such. Spread that 7mbps over the Dry Tortugas and it’s not going to be so bad. But big Out West parks or The Smokies? Set expectations at 'Bad'…

It's also not yet clear how well the link is going to work for "normal" in-pocket use (receiving notifications, etc), or when sky views are limited or occluded. While the perceived experience is mostly limited by the satellite (and its regulated power output), there's also the fact that a phone may have to operate at high power levels in both directions. That's not really a sustainable operation mode as it can burn through battery life (and it's why Apple specifically avoids it by having the user 'wake up' the satellite functionality by initiating any satellite communications).

Overall, I'd guess the average best case experience, probably starting late 2025 at the earliest, will be something similar to what we had when phones were operating on 2G networks. Maybe in early 2025 a best-effort emergency text service will go live, and maybe some limited 'regular' texting.
 
It's also not yet clear how well the link is going to work for "normal" in-pocket use (receiving notifications, etc), or when sky views are limited or occluded. While the perceived experience is mostly limited by the satellite (and its regulated power output), there's also the fact that a phone may have to operate at high power levels in both directions. That's not really a sustainable operation mode as it can burn through battery life (and it's why Apple specifically avoids it by having the user 'wake up' the satellite functionality by initiating any satellite communications).
How is receive power consumption variable on a standard phone? Are there multiple LNA?
FWIW, Apple phones (14 and after) have additional hardware for satellite communications.
 
…voice is also something you can't put in a queue like a text, which can get sent asymmetrically without much impact to user experience. Voice has to be prioritized traffic…
I assume that a voicemail is recorded in real time downstream but it would be interesting if your phone knew that you were on a satellite connection and leaving a voicemail, if the carrier could have the phone queue the message asynchronously like a text. I assume that is how a FaceTime message works already.
 
How is receive power consumption variable on a standard phone? Are there multiple LNA?

Dynamic LNA power, yes. (Agreed that doesn't materially impact the battery life, as I suppose my statement could be interpreted)

FWIW, Apple phones (14 and after) have additional hardware for satellite communications.

There's really not a lot of additional hardware. I don't know if there's even a teardown video that says "this extra such-and-such" is for the satellite stuff.

I assume that a voicemail is recorded in real time downstream but it would be interesting if your phone knew that you were on a satellite connection and leaving a voicemail, if the carrier could have the phone queue the message asynchronously like a text. I assume that is how a FaceTime message works already.

Presumably if the VM was stored locally then uploaded, it's all gravy...? (I don't know the different ways VMs are currently handled)

Related, and bigger picture, for any device use case there's going to be massive benefit from satellite specific dev. Terrestrial protocols really aren't that concerned with size or power levels; for D2D satellite it's all about maximizing the disadvantaged link (and minimizing battery consumption). It will be interesting to see how much (or little) SX/TM streamline the protocol over the standard terrestrial stack. We know Apple spent a ton of time counting (and minimizing) bits...but they're known for hyper engineering pretty much everything. Will others put in that same level of effort, especially given that its not exactly a huge market?
 
Dynamic LNA power, yes. (Agreed that doesn't materially impact the battery life, as I suppose my statement could be interpreted)



There's really not a lot of additional hardware. I don't know if there's even a teardown video that says "this extra such-and-such" is for the satellite stuff.



Presumably if the VM was stored locally then uploaded, it's all gravy...? (I don't know the different ways VMs are currently handled)

Related, and bigger picture, for any device use case there's going to be massive benefit from satellite specific dev. Terrestrial protocols really aren't that concerned with size or power levels; for D2D satellite it's all about maximizing the disadvantaged link (and minimizing battery consumption). It will be interesting to see how much (or little) SX/TM streamline the protocol over the standard terrestrial stack. We know Apple spent a ton of time counting (and minimizing) bits...but they're known for hyper engineering pretty much everything. Will others put in that same level of effort, especially given that its not exactly a huge market?
I believe Apple also has specialized hardware in ground stations and spent a bunch of money to build specialized ground stations.
It's amazing that SpaceX is able to do this with bog standard phones.
 
I believe Apple also has specialized hardware in ground stations and spent a bunch of money to build specialized ground stations.

Could be? Though...they're just using the existing Globalstar ground stations. There's likely some apple specific racks at those locations to handle the apple traffic, since those ground stations were [presumably] built to only handle only Globalstar traffic.

In context it's worth noting that SpaceX is 'putting money' into their feeder links as well, just on the satellite side of the network diagram rather than the ground side.

It's amazing that SpaceX is able to do this with bog standard phones.

For sure it's cool they're part of the D2D club now. What remains to be seen exactly what SX can "do" from a production service perspective, and what level of technology is required on the user side. Implied (or at least, as interpreted by most folks) is that basically any mobile phone could theoretically use the network...but will a 4G phone be able to work on the SX/TM D2D network using a 5G NTN-based protocol? Probably not...

It's also worth reiterating that the "modifications" to apple phones are both A) minimal if not imperceptible and B) transparent to the user, and are far less complex than many of the other modifications [all] phone manufacturers make from model year to model year. In other words, it's not a "modified iPhone", it's just a "bog standard iPhone".
 
Could be? Though...they're just using the existing Globalstar ground stations. There's likely some apple specific racks at those locations to handle the apple traffic, since those ground stations were [presumably] built to only handle only Globalstar traffic.

In context it's worth noting that SpaceX is 'putting money' into their feeder links as well, just on the satellite side of the network diagram rather than the ground side.



For sure it's cool they're part of the D2D club now. What remains to be seen exactly what SX can "do" from a production service perspective, and what level of technology is required on the user side. Implied (or at least, as interpreted by most folks) is that basically any mobile phone could theoretically use the network...but will a 4G phone be able to work on the SX/TM D2D network using a 5G NTN-based protocol? Probably not...

It's also worth reiterating that the "modifications" to apple phones are both A) minimal if not imperceptible and B) transparent to the user, and are far less complex than many of the other modifications [all] phone manufacturers make from model year to model year. In other words, it's not a "modified iPhone", it's just a "bog standard iPhone".
Only new iPhones with the modifications will work. Not older "bog standard" iPhones.
 
I wonder if it will ever be attractive for cell towers to integrate a Starlink base station so that traffic could be seamlessly routed to and from remote areas. If SpaceX created their own inexpensive cell tower implementation for such places, they could become the remote telecom company of choice.
 
I wonder if it will ever be attractive for cell towers to integrate a Starlink base station so that traffic could be seamlessly routed to and from remote areas. If SpaceX created their own inexpensive cell tower implementation for such places, they could become the remote telecom company of choice.
Yeah, I think Elon/ SpaceX mentioned that in a previous talk.
 
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